Jon,<br>
<br>
I dont agree with your message. About yahoo mail and hotmail
address isnt true. I live in Brazil and many universities dont have
have mail accounts for all students. Im a phd student and I use gmail
account because my university dont provide e-mail account for me.. only
this. So, please dont use examples with countries like when you talk
about China. <br>
<br>
<br>
Bye,<br>
<br>
Alessandro Vivas Andrade<br>
<br><br><div><span class="gmail_quote">On 9/14/05, <b class="gmail_sendername">Fan Ye</b> <<a href="mailto:fanye@us.ibm.com">fanye@us.ibm.com</a>> wrote:</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
Jon,<br><br>This is the first time I ever post on e2e list, although I've subscribed<br>to it several years.<br><br>I'm really astonished to see your technical discussion on ns drifting, or<br>"accidentally dropping", onto some language attacking an ethnic group
<br>(see below quoted text). You may not have the intention, but what you<br>wrote seems to imply that all these guys are clueless chinese students who<br><br>dont know a better way to plagiarize.<br><br>> (I have no idea where they are really from - are they using such
<br>> addresses because they are afraid their university will catch them<br>> plagiarising,<br>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^<br>> or are they blocked in china?) and they do more harm than good.<br>
^^^^^^<br><br>I'm very, very upset to see this kind of language, not to mention at a<br>least expected place, a technical discussion list.<br><br>I have little clue about why these people use hotmail or yahoo address<br>
either. My guess (from my own, limited experience 6+ years ago), is that<br>many schools in china simply do not provide an email address to every<br>student, or the habit of Internet users in china differs from here a lot,
<br>people (including graduate students) simply use one email address for<br>everything, they consider this a convenience. I've got emails from such<br>students as well, and they asked valid, technical questions. I didnt have
<br>the chance to check out their publication, but I would have a hard time to<br><br>believe they are just poor plagiarizers without a better means to conceal<br>identity.<br><br>To check the validity of your claim that these guys (at least most) are
<br>from china, I did a quick sampling on ns-users 2005 Aug archieve. At the<br>end is a sorted list of those who used yahoo addresses. Of these 31 guys,<br>only 4 have chinese names. I can reasonably say that nearly 90% of them
<br>are NOT from china.<br><br>So how did you find out<br>1) they're plagiarizing<br>2) they're from china?<br><br>Fan<br><br>__________________________________________________________________<br><br>From: aashaikh_pk at
<a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (ayaz shaikh)<br>From: aashaikh_pk at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (ayaz shaikh)<br>From: ahmedbelhoul2 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Ahmed Belhoul)<br>From: alexandreadames at
<a href="http://yahoo.com.br">yahoo.com.br</a><br>(=?iso-8859-1?q?Alexandre=20=FFffffc1dames=20Alves=20Pontes?=)<br>From: alexandreadames at <a href="http://yahoo.com.br">yahoo.com.br</a><br>(=?iso-8859-1?q?Alexandre=20=FFffffc1dames=20Alves=20Pontes?=)
<br>From: altaf8031 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (altaf hussain)<br>From: altaf8031 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Altaf Hussain)<br>From: anrew791 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (andrew lloyd)
<br>From: anrew791 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (andrew lloyd)<br>From: anrew791 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (andrew lloyd)<br>From: anrew791 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (andrew lloyd)
<br>From: anrew791 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (andrew lloyd)<br>From: bijuissac at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Biju Issac)<br>From: bijuissac at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Biju Issac)
<br>From: born2bewild200 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Just Me)<br>From: busybee032002 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (sarah Guo)<br>From: coolns2 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (cherie)
<br>From: coolns2 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (cherie)<br>From: ebenezer_a at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Ebenezer)<br>From: ehsan_ataie59 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Ehsan Ataie)
<br>From: ess_hs at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (essam abuosamra)<br>From: ess_hs at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (essam abuosamra)<br>From: gasyed2003 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Ghalib Asadullah)
<br>From: jagadish_kranti at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (jagadish kranti)<br>From: jn_lavina at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Lavina Jain)<br>From: joysmilelol at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com
</a> (joy smilelol)<br>From: joysmilelol at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (joy smilelol)<br>From: joysmilelol at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (joy smilelol)<br>From: joysmilelol at <a href="http://yahoo.com">
yahoo.com</a> (joy smilelol)<br>From: mansoor_jafry at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (mansoor)<br>From: milismrc at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Marico DS)<br>From: mrhuangzhihong at <a href="http://yahoo.com.cn">
yahoo.com.cn</a> (=?gb2312?q?=D6=B2=BA=EA=20=BB=C6?=)<br>From: nazir_fawad at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Fawad Nazir)<br>From: nazir_fawad at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Fawad Nazir)<br>From: nazir_fawad at
<a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Fawad Nazir)<br>From: nazir_fawad at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Fawad Nazir)<br>From: nazir_fawad at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Fawad Nazir)<br>From: nittingarg_iiitmg at
<a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (nittin garg)<br>From: rajagopal_452 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Raja Sombhotla)<br>From: rana_aa at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (rana abu nafisa)<br>
From: raneem31 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Rana)<br>From: raneem31 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Rana Alhalimi)<br>From: reddymythili29 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (enugala mythili)
<br>From: romdoul2002 at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (TAING Nguon)<br>From: sheng_jin2003 at <a href="http://yahoo.com.cn">yahoo.com.cn</a> (Sheng Jin)<br>From: shicheng969 at <a href="http://yahoo.com.cn">yahoo.com.cn
</a> (shicheng)<br>From: sumanth_smiles at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (Sumanth Sarma, Hallegiri)<br>From: zarkonovicic at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (zarko novicic)<br>From: zillurcse at <a href="http://yahoo.com">
yahoo.com</a> (zillur rahman)<br>From: zillurcse at <a href="http://yahoo.com">yahoo.com</a> (zillur rahman)<br><br><a href="mailto:end2end-interest-bounces@postel.org">end2end-interest-bounces@postel.org</a> wrote on 09/14/2005 02:41:27 AM:
<br><br>> Lloyd,<br>><br>> this is so on the money in pretty much every comment that I really<br>> have to support it.<br>><br>> The story of NS is as<br>> the story of IP, but sadly, not as<br>> the story of O.
<br>><br>> I think the open source/commons implication is part of the problem, but<br>also<br>> the success disasster that NS became is partly because they made it too<br>easy<br>> (analogous to socket programming)
<br>> so anyone who could wield a bit of tcl or modify an existing bit of<br>C++,<br>> thought they could build an interesting new simulation, and didnt<br>> have to acquire<br>> any disciple to do so - some people (typically hard put upon PhD
<br>> students either<br>> strongly self motivated and sef-disciplined) managed to do some<br>> useful things, but<br>> an awful lot are those hotmail/yahoo email folks you allude to,<br>> (I have no idea where they are really from - are they using such
<br>> addresses because they are afraid their university will catch them<br>> plagiarising,<br>> or are they blocked in china?) and they do more harm than good.<br>><br>> anecdote - about 6-7 years ago we went through a lot of papers on
<br>tcp/aqm that<br>> had used ns (on the order of 100 papers) and tried to find the ns<br>> code to see if<br>> we could reproduce the results - around 50% of the papers appeared<br>> to be either bogus (when you
<br>> got th code it didnt work with the alleged version of ns) or appeard<br>> to have graphs generated<br>> from a single run of ns (thre first one). quite a few were based o<br>> na (short lived) bug in the
<br>> congestion control code in ns, (EPFL and others confirmed this bug -<br>> i cannot remember the exact detail,<br>> but it meant that the otcl and c++ variables weren't bound, so if<br>> you varied one, the other one didnt -
<br>> this meant that the results for cwnd were basically random - papers<br>> were publised on this too).<br>><br>> before ns, there was XSim, and real and the other descendants of the<br>> MIT simulator, which had a similar series of
<br>> problems, although were sufficiently hard to use that most people<br>> ended up doing pretty much clean 100%<br>> rewrites of the relevant part of the code for their thesis work, and<br>ended up<br>> i) understanding it
<br>> ii) validating it<br>> iii) getting lots of meaningful results out<br>> iv) abandoning it completely upon graduating...<br>><br>><br>> Your comments about opnet also apply to matlab and other propietary
<br>> and quite good (or very good, respectively)<br>> tools, that are supported so long as the relevant supervisrs ask for<br>> funds - they are relatively expensive for<br>> UK university budgets so are typically default-off - which is
<br>> ludicrous really given the time it can save a student<br>> and supervisor and quality improvement in results....<br>><br>> we attempted to do an NS re-write in java (jns and jvs) which worked<br>> pretty well and several folks picked up on it,
<br>> but exactly the same thing started to happen to us (at UCL) so I<br>> abandoned the program of work (though others<br>> picked up on it and it is on sourceforge i believe (not due to us)<br>> but i dont know how active it is -
<br>><br>> one specific thing that attempted to do was to make it "proper<br>> programming" to use the simulator,<br>> so the tecchnical bar was set a bit higher than just throwing some<br>> modified tcl at something and hoping...
<br>> so trying to counter the point i made above by setting an implict<br>> "qualifying exam" to drive jns -<br>> but i think its evidence that at least in the case of educational<br>> software, open source may not be a good idea...
<br>> supporting your point again.<br>><br>> agree with your points on support mail lists etc too<br>><br>> in fact i think this is the nearly first time i agree 100% with<br>> what you wrote!<br>><br>
> cheers<br>> jon<br>> p.s. another anecdote - the person who re-wrote pim at cisco did<br>> work on multicast in ns for his phd.<br>> yes, he found the same problems. so did others. i wish i'd told them<br>
> to write their own simulator.<br>> mea culpa.<br>><br>><br>><br>> In missive <<a href="mailto:Pine.GSO.4.50.0509131206000.4689-100000@argos.ee.surrey">Pine.GSO.4.50.0509131206000.4689-100000@argos.ee.surrey
</a>.<br>> <a href="http://ac.uk">ac.uk</a>>, Lloyd Wood typed:<br>><br>> >>Detlef,<br>> >><br>> >>There is an ns-developers list, with a much higher signal-to-noise<br>> >>ratio, and moderation of posts from non-subscribers by Tom Henderson.
<br>> >>But that list is focused on fixing bugs in behaviour in ns (with a<br>> >>current emphasis from Lacage on rewriting the 802.11 code while<br>making<br>> >>all other ns programmers look silly), rather than explaining observed
<br>> >>behaviour of ns without reference to code. The pending move to<br>> >>sourceforge should make more lists and tools available.<br>> >><br>> >>The contact link at the bottom of various ns webpages like
e.g.:<br>> >><a href="http://www.isi.edu/nsnam/ns/">http://www.isi.edu/nsnam/ns/</a><br>> >>is _still_ the ns-users list address, which is irresponsible, since<br>it<br>> >>encourages questions without participation or knowledge of context of
<br>> >>the list -- and the after-the-fact autofaq that gets mailed out<br>> >>doesn't seem to help. This can be considered an example of either<br>open<br>> >>source trying to externalise its support costs, or the tragedy of the
<br>> >>commons in action.<br>> >><br>> >>These days, everybody is using ns, presumably because it's free,<br>which<br>> >>arguably is of benefit towards students and their universities. (I
<br>> >>wouldn't want to be a student trying to use Opnet and have the<br>> >>license expire because academics who don't use Opnet are bickering<br>> >>about which budget payment for the next year's license should come
<br>out<br>> >>of. Or be considering going part-time as a PhD student and realising<br>> >>you'd then being exposed to license and server access worries. Or<br>> >>discovering there's been an Opnet upgrade and the user interface has
<br>> >>changed entirely. Again. In some very important respects, ns gives<br>PhD<br>> >>students slightly more control over their destinies.)<br>> >><br>> >>I spent a couple of years in the late 90s answering mail on the
<br>> >>ns-users list; I was the first in my university to use ns, so got to<br>> >>grips with it very very slowly, while others who followed me got on<br>> >>far faster, since there was some local help for installation etc.,
<br>and<br>> >>once over those hurdles they actually knew how to program. (as a<br>> >>strategy this worked -- I received enough help from others that I<br>> >>could figure out how to create some trivial solvable problems using
<br>> >>ns, write them up, and graduate. But it's risky and not for<br>everyone.)<br>> >><br>> >>In answering questions on ns (while also asking unanswered questions<br>> >>more of the form 'these documented commands don't work and ns
<br>crashes!<br>> >>Why?' -- ns multicast is a complete trainwreck, PIM-SM never worked<br>> >>for me), I have now left myself open to years and years of questions<br>> >>from yahoo/hotmail-using students who have trouble stringing coherent
<br>> >>sentences together. I imagine it's much the same for anyone else who<br>> >>has contributed to ns, and shudder to think how much mail e.g. Floyd<br>> >>or Heidemann must get on a daily basis. This discourages experienced
<br>> >>participation in the ns-users mailing list; after graduation I<br>> >>realised I had to unsubscribe for my own sanity.<br>> >><br>> >>Yes, a moderated ns-users list would be a good thing, but it would be
<br>> >>a full-time job, and there's no ns-related charitable foundation.<br>> >>(Although sourceforge can accept paypal donations, so there could be<br>a<br>> >>way of channelling money... hmmm. What's the business case? What's
<br>> >>the selling point for donations?)<br>> >><br>> >>But complaining about ns misses the point. You may as well complain<br>> >>about why universities don't teach you practical programming 'here's
<br>a<br>> >>ten-year-old codebase and here's how to figure out how it works'<br>> >>skills. Universities just expect you pick everything up by osmosis;<br>> >>hey, get students to spend enough time in a room with computers, and
<br>> >>maybe they'll learn to control them. The principle works with<br>> >>libraries, books and reading, right?<br>> >><br>> >>Universities are effectively trying to outsource their support
<br>> >>costs, too, in an increasingly short-term world.<br>> >><br>> >>L.<br>> >><br>> >>recommends <a href="http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/network.html">http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/network.html
</a><br>> >><br>> >><br>> >>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Detlef Bosau wrote:<br>> >><br>> >>> Please don=B4t wonder when I ask this here.<br>> >>><br>> >>> I placed this question (dynamic AWND) yesterday into the ns-users
<br>list,<br>> >>> after having subscribed to this list again after a break of about<br>two<br>> >>> years.<br>> >>><br>> >>> I think, I=B4m going to unsubscribe again. The ns-users list is
<br>simply<br>> >>> useless. One of the most important facts in using mailing lists is<br>that<br>> >>> after the third question like "Urgent!!!!!!!! I lost my<br>shoes!!!!!!",<br>> >>> "Urgent!!!!! Need help!!!!! I=B4m going to take an exam!!!! Help
<br>me!!!!=<br>> >>!"<br>> >>> Or "I cannot install the ns2, there are much of this funny files<br>ending<br>> >>> with .cc, what=B4s hat?", "Where is the ns2 documentation? There
<br>are mu=<br>> >>ch<br>> >>> of that strange .h files, but they are apparently no _help_ files"<br>etc.<br>> >>> etc. etc., any user who has in fact an idea of what the ns2 is or
<br>what<br>> >>> programming is all about will simply unsubscribe. In addition, it<br>is<br>> >>> simply not possible to follow this lare amount of mails there.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Perhaps, one could think about a ns-users list with a better
<br>> >>> administration. At least questions like: "which linux must i<br>install<br>> >>> on my nt?" or "will nt work in mac when i install my ns in linux?"<br>> >>> or similar should be made to disappear. It=B4s not only annoying
<br>but<br>> >>> simply impossible to pick out that one useful post of the hundred<br>> >>> posts each day that way.<br>> >>><br>> >>> >From my own observation, I=B4ve seen that there are universities
<br>the<br>> >>> students of which boast with large ns2 knowlege - however in fact,<br>ther=<br>> >>e<br>> >>> is none.<br>> >>> And there is a clear reason for this: There is no introduction into
<br><br>the<br>> >>> ns2, no lectures, no ns2 users group etc. etc. at these<br>universities.<br>> >>><br>> >>> In nearly every village in Germany you have a Linux Users Group.<br>> >>>
<br>> >>> I don=B4t know how this is in Stuttgart but in larger and more<br>importan=<br>> >>t<br>> >>> villages like Markl/Inn or Oberammergau you surely find one ;-)<br>> >>>
<br>> >>> So, if there is some guy having problems with Linux, he can ask<br>there<br>> >>> and will perhaps get assistance. In addition, one can arrange some<br>kind<br>> >>> of kknowledge transfer and education there.
<br>> >>><br>> >>> Please excuse me, when I=B4m upset on this one. The ns2 is a useful<br><br>too=<br>> >>l.<br>> >>> It is very common and it=B4s, in general, a real good work.
<br>> >>> (It can be seen, however, that many programmers contributed to this<br><br>wor=<br>> >>k<br>> >>> and that not all of them are equally skilled. But that=B4s<br>> >>> life.) It would be a pity, when a useful and helpful program with
<br>many<br>> >>> men years of work in it and much excellent knowledge therein<br>> >>> will perhaps become less attractive in the long run, because there<br>is n=<br>> >>o<br>> >>> useful venue to discuss ns2 matters.
<br>> >>><br>> >>> >From what I=B4ve seen in this one single day, I=B4m about to<br>suggest t=<br>> >>o<br>> >>> close the ns-users list and to start a new discussion venue from
<br>> >>> scratch.<br>> >>> I don=B4t believe that ns-users can be salvaged.<br>> >>><br>> >>> Detlef<br>> >>><br>> >>> --<br>> >>> Detlef Bosau
<br>> >>> Galileistrasse 30<br>> >>> 70565 Stuttgart<br>> >>> Mail: <a href="mailto:detlef.bosau@web.de">detlef.bosau@web.de</a><br>> >>> Web: <a href="http://www.detlef-bosau.de">
http://www.detlef-bosau.de</a><br>> >>> Mobile: +49 172 681 9937<br>> >><br>> >><<a href="http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/">http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/</a>><
<a href="mailto:L.Wood@eim.surrey.ac.uk">L.Wood@eim.surrey.ac.uk</a>><br>><br>> cheers<br>><br>> jon<br>><br><br><br></blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Alessandro Vivas Andrade