[e2e] QoS vs Bandwidth Overprovisioning

[demir]

Ping Pan,
I agree with your points. However, the discussion on this thread is about
"QoS vs Bandwidth Overprovisioning" and claim is that
"bandwidth-overprovisioning" solves the problem, currently. 

> we deal with the problem). I'm an engineer, so sorry about my ignorant
> on architecture and religion. IHMO, much of the work in the past has

Your being engineer won't change the discussion. There are other
disciplines other than architecture and religion :)

> been focused on QoS requirements and solutions from the end-user point
> of view. Granted that end-to-end has been very successful, but we have
> to realize that today's Internet is very different now (like it or not).
> It's a big business, so instead of designing something that can only
> satisfy end users, any deployable solution must first satisfy network

I don't see anything wrong with the approach from the end-user point of
view because QoS is for them. I think the ones emerged for the Internet
satisfy the network in the first place. That's the whole argument "QoS
architecture vs bandwidth overprovisioning". The solution will depend on
the demanding "traffic" and provided "capacity" and QoS definition. Other
factors (that I and you listed) will play role in designing the
architecture. 

> and service providers. When you talk about optimizing network resources,
> the question is not whether you can come up with some beautiful
> equations, rather where do you want the resources to be optimized? At
> core? At edge? Would it work if the networks run different routing
> protocols with different policies? When you say scalability, what is not
> scaling in the first place? There was an argument on memory and hardware
> scaling, thanks to Moore's Law, we don't have such problem yet. I would
> think that the real scaling issue for providers is manageability.

I agree with your points. I listed these factors at first place then
talked about the optimization problem. I agree with your
"managebility" point; in addition security, authentication, policy, etc if
you consider "manegebility" as a scability issue. However, this is a
whole different discussion.

> I read a paper from Dave Clark recently on rethinking e2e argument. It
> was very very good (sorry, I don't have the pointer.) 

I aprreciate alot if you can supply or give a pointer.

Alper K. Demir