[e2e] Re: [Tsvwg] Really End-to-end or CRC vs everything else?

[Randall R. Stewart]

Actually:

I must strongly dis-agree... this does not indicate
his/their vote on this... the question is what is
the acceptable trade off.. that is unanswered by
the end2end argument...

I will let Dr. Reed answer and not put
words in his mouth, if he so wishes to voice an 
opinion...


R


Qiaobing Xie wrote:
> 
> Randy,
> 
> Based on the following sentence you quote from the end2end paper,
> 
> "....It is probably not important to strive for a negligible error rate
> at any point below the application level."
> 
> you can probably add David Reed and his co-authors of that paper to your
> "No, the cost is too high" camp :)
> 
> -Qiaobing
> 
> > So far I think I can sum up the folks in different camps:
> > ******************************************************
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Yes, pay the price:
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Lloyd Wood
> > La Monte Yarroll
> > Doug Otis
> > David Black
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> > No, the cost is to high:
> > ----------------------------------------
> > Qiaobing Xie
> > Ran Atkinson
> >
> > -----------------------------------------
> > No preference, as long as ONLY one is picked:
> > -----------------------------------------
> > Kacheong Poon
> > Jonathan Woods
> > Me
> >
> > -----------------------------------
> > Not sure there is a problem:
> > ------------------------------------
> > Ian Rytina
> > Shyamal Prasad
> >
> > ******************************************************
> > Now, if I missed anyone OR have you down wrong please
> > chime in here... my apologies ...
> >
> > If you would like to chime in ****PLEASE PLEASE do so!!!
> > the more people that comment and add to the discussion
> > the better*****
> >
> > As it stands, I don't see any consensus either way
> > on this issue... except I would say the one item
> > of consenus is that there is a problem :)
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > R
> >
> > >
> > > The black boxers say that the application should be able to trust the
> > > transport completely.  The natural conclusion here is that we should
> > > use the strongest digest protection we can get our hands on, CPU
> > > cycles be damned.
> > >
> > > I don't think either side of the debate intends the conclusions I have
> > > drawn above.  I THINK we are debating CRC vs everything else.  Is this
> > > accurate?
> > >
> > > I've revealed my bias in previous messages, so let me bolster my side.
> > >
> > > Does anybody dispute the fact that CRC-32 gives the strongest
> > > protection of any of the options we've examined?  I THINK the only
> > > remaining issue we care about is CPU and memory consumption.
> > >
> > > I was hoping to find you some real numbers, but instead I have
> > > anecdotal data.
> > >
> > > Did you know that Fidonet used a CRC-32 to protect data?  For those
> > > who don't know, this is a store-and-forward network built during the
> > > days when a fully loaded machine had a 12Mhz 8086 with 640K of RAM.
> > >
> > > Not small enough for you?  How about Zmodem?  It ran a real-time (for
> > > 2400 baud links) CRC-32 on my TRS-80.  That's a system with 48K of RAM
> > > and a 2Mhz 8-bit CPU.
> > >
> > > If I were going to build a really cost-sensitive embedded device with
> > > SCTP today, I would probably opt for Zilog's version of the Z80 that
> > > includes a hardware CRC.  The chip is very mature (over 10 years old),
> > > has multiple second sources, and goes for under $1 in OEM quantities.
> > > --
> > > La Monte H.P. Yarroll      Home:                piggy at baqaqi.chi.il.us
> > >    If you remember nothing else:  piggy at acm.org         NIC Handle: LY
> > >    GPL - "Just give source a chance."
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > tsvwg mailing list
> > > tsvwg at ietf.org
> > > http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg
> >
> > --
> > Randall R. Stewart
> > randall at stewart.chicago.il.us or rrs at cisco.com
> > 815-342-5222 (cell) 815-477-2127 (work)
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > tsvwg mailing list
> > tsvwg at ietf.org
> > http://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/tsvwg

-- 
Randall R. Stewart
randall at stewart.chicago.il.us or rrs at cisco.com
815-342-5222 (cell) 815-477-2127 (work)