[e2e] (no subject)

[Alessandro Vivas]

Jon,

I dont agree with your message. About yahoo mail and hotmail address isnt 
true. I live in Brazil and many universities dont have have mail accounts 
for all students. Im a phd student and I use gmail account because my 
university dont provide e-mail account for me.. only this. So, please dont 
use examples with countries like when you talk about China. 


Bye,

Alessandro Vivas Andrade


On 9/14/05, Fan Ye <fanye at us.ibm.com> wrote:
> 
> Jon,
> 
> This is the first time I ever post on e2e list, although I've subscribed
> to it several years.
> 
> I'm really astonished to see your technical discussion on ns drifting, or
> "accidentally dropping", onto some language attacking an ethnic group
> (see below quoted text). You may not have the intention, but what you
> wrote seems to imply that all these guys are clueless chinese students who
> 
> dont know a better way to plagiarize.
> 
> > (I have no idea where they are really from - are they using such
> > addresses because they are afraid their university will catch them
> > plagiarising,
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > or are they blocked in china?) and they do more harm than good.
> ^^^^^^
> 
> I'm very, very upset to see this kind of language, not to mention at a
> least expected place, a technical discussion list.
> 
> I have little clue about why these people use hotmail or yahoo address
> either. My guess (from my own, limited experience 6+ years ago), is that
> many schools in china simply do not provide an email address to every
> student, or the habit of Internet users in china differs from here a lot,
> people (including graduate students) simply use one email address for
> everything, they consider this a convenience. I've got emails from such
> students as well, and they asked valid, technical questions. I didnt have
> the chance to check out their publication, but I would have a hard time to
> 
> believe they are just poor plagiarizers without a better means to conceal
> identity.
> 
> To check the validity of your claim that these guys (at least most) are
> from china, I did a quick sampling on ns-users 2005 Aug archieve. At the
> end is a sorted list of those who used yahoo addresses. Of these 31 guys,
> only 4 have chinese names. I can reasonably say that nearly 90% of them
> are NOT from china.
> 
> So how did you find out
> 1) they're plagiarizing
> 2) they're from china?
> 
> Fan
> 
> __________________________________________________________________
> 
> From: aashaikh_pk at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (ayaz shaikh)
> From: aashaikh_pk at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (ayaz shaikh)
> From: ahmedbelhoul2 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Ahmed Belhoul)
> From: alexandreadames at yahoo.com.br <http://yahoo.com.br>
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alexandre=20=FFffffc1dames=20Alves=20Pontes?=)
> From: alexandreadames at yahoo.com.br <http://yahoo.com.br>
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Alexandre=20=FFffffc1dames=20Alves=20Pontes?=)
> From: altaf8031 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (altaf hussain)
> From: altaf8031 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Altaf Hussain)
> From: anrew791 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (andrew lloyd)
> From: anrew791 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (andrew lloyd)
> From: anrew791 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (andrew lloyd)
> From: anrew791 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (andrew lloyd)
> From: anrew791 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (andrew lloyd)
> From: bijuissac at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Biju Issac)
> From: bijuissac at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Biju Issac)
> From: born2bewild200 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Just Me)
> From: busybee032002 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (sarah Guo)
> From: coolns2 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (cherie)
> From: coolns2 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (cherie)
> From: ebenezer_a at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Ebenezer)
> From: ehsan_ataie59 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Ehsan Ataie)
> From: ess_hs at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (essam abuosamra)
> From: ess_hs at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (essam abuosamra)
> From: gasyed2003 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Ghalib Asadullah)
> From: jagadish_kranti at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (jagadish kranti)
> From: jn_lavina at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Lavina Jain)
> From: joysmilelol at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (joy smilelol)
> From: joysmilelol at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (joy smilelol)
> From: joysmilelol at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (joy smilelol)
> From: joysmilelol at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (joy smilelol)
> From: mansoor_jafry at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (mansoor)
> From: milismrc at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Marico DS)
> From: mrhuangzhihong at yahoo.com.cn <http://yahoo.com.cn>(=?gb2312?q?=D6=B2=BA=EA=20=BB=C6?=)
> From: nazir_fawad at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Fawad Nazir)
> From: nazir_fawad at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Fawad Nazir)
> From: nazir_fawad at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Fawad Nazir)
> From: nazir_fawad at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Fawad Nazir)
> From: nazir_fawad at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Fawad Nazir)
> From: nittingarg_iiitmg at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (nittin garg)
> From: rajagopal_452 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Raja Sombhotla)
> From: rana_aa at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (rana abu nafisa)
> From: raneem31 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Rana)
> From: raneem31 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Rana Alhalimi)
> From: reddymythili29 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (enugala mythili)
> From: romdoul2002 at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (TAING Nguon)
> From: sheng_jin2003 at yahoo.com.cn <http://yahoo.com.cn> (Sheng Jin)
> From: shicheng969 at yahoo.com.cn <http://yahoo.com.cn> (shicheng)
> From: sumanth_smiles at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (Sumanth Sarma, 
> Hallegiri)
> From: zarkonovicic at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (zarko novicic)
> From: zillurcse at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (zillur rahman)
> From: zillurcse at yahoo.com <http://yahoo.com> (zillur rahman)
> 
> end2end-interest-bounces at postel.org wrote on 09/14/2005 02:41:27 AM:
> 
> > Lloyd,
> >
> > this is so on the money in pretty much every comment that I really
> > have to support it.
> >
> > The story of NS is as
> > the story of IP, but sadly, not as
> > the story of O.
> >
> > I think the open source/commons implication is part of the problem, but
> also
> > the success disasster that NS became is partly because they made it too
> easy
> > (analogous to socket programming)
> > so anyone who could wield a bit of tcl or modify an existing bit of
> C++,
> > thought they could build an interesting new simulation, and didnt
> > have to acquire
> > any disciple to do so - some people (typically hard put upon PhD
> > students either
> > strongly self motivated and sef-disciplined) managed to do some
> > useful things, but
> > an awful lot are those hotmail/yahoo email folks you allude to,
> > (I have no idea where they are really from - are they using such
> > addresses because they are afraid their university will catch them
> > plagiarising,
> > or are they blocked in china?) and they do more harm than good.
> >
> > anecdote - about 6-7 years ago we went through a lot of papers on
> tcp/aqm that
> > had used ns (on the order of 100 papers) and tried to find the ns
> > code to see if
> > we could reproduce the results - around 50% of the papers appeared
> > to be either bogus (when you
> > got th code it didnt work with the alleged version of ns) or appeard
> > to have graphs generated
> > from a single run of ns (thre first one). quite a few were based o
> > na (short lived) bug in the
> > congestion control code in ns, (EPFL and others confirmed this bug -
> > i cannot remember the exact detail,
> > but it meant that the otcl and c++ variables weren't bound, so if
> > you varied one, the other one didnt -
> > this meant that the results for cwnd were basically random - papers
> > were publised on this too).
> >
> > before ns, there was XSim, and real and the other descendants of the
> > MIT simulator, which had a similar series of
> > problems, although were sufficiently hard to use that most people
> > ended up doing pretty much clean 100%
> > rewrites of the relevant part of the code for their thesis work, and
> ended up
> > i) understanding it
> > ii) validating it
> > iii) getting lots of meaningful results out
> > iv) abandoning it completely upon graduating...
> >
> >
> > Your comments about opnet also apply to matlab and other propietary
> > and quite good (or very good, respectively)
> > tools, that are supported so long as the relevant supervisrs ask for
> > funds - they are relatively expensive for
> > UK university budgets so are typically default-off - which is
> > ludicrous really given the time it can save a student
> > and supervisor and quality improvement in results....
> >
> > we attempted to do an NS re-write in java (jns and jvs) which worked
> > pretty well and several folks picked up on it,
> > but exactly the same thing started to happen to us (at UCL) so I
> > abandoned the program of work (though others
> > picked up on it and it is on sourceforge i believe (not due to us)
> > but i dont know how active it is -
> >
> > one specific thing that attempted to do was to make it "proper
> > programming" to use the simulator,
> > so the tecchnical bar was set a bit higher than just throwing some
> > modified tcl at something and hoping...
> > so trying to counter the point i made above by setting an implict
> > "qualifying exam" to drive jns -
> > but i think its evidence that at least in the case of educational
> > software, open source may not be a good idea...
> > supporting your point again.
> >
> > agree with your points on support mail lists etc too
> >
> > in fact i think this is the nearly first time i agree 100% with
> > what you wrote!
> >
> > cheers
> > jon
> > p.s. another anecdote - the person who re-wrote pim at cisco did
> > work on multicast in ns for his phd.
> > yes, he found the same problems. so did others. i wish i'd told them
> > to write their own simulator.
> > mea culpa.
> >
> >
> >
> > In missive <Pine.GSO.4.50.0509131206000.4689-100000 at argos.ee.surrey.
> > ac.uk <http://ac.uk>>, Lloyd Wood typed:
> >
> > >>Detlef,
> > >>
> > >>There is an ns-developers list, with a much higher signal-to-noise
> > >>ratio, and moderation of posts from non-subscribers by Tom Henderson.
> > >>But that list is focused on fixing bugs in behaviour in ns (with a
> > >>current emphasis from Lacage on rewriting the 802.11 code while
> making
> > >>all other ns programmers look silly), rather than explaining observed
> > >>behaviour of ns without reference to code. The pending move to
> > >>sourceforge should make more lists and tools available.
> > >>
> > >>The contact link at the bottom of various ns webpages like e.g.:
> > >>http://www.isi.edu/nsnam/ns/
> > >>is _still_ the ns-users list address, which is irresponsible, since
> it
> > >>encourages questions without participation or knowledge of context of
> > >>the list -- and the after-the-fact autofaq that gets mailed out
> > >>doesn't seem to help. This can be considered an example of either
> open
> > >>source trying to externalise its support costs, or the tragedy of the
> > >>commons in action.
> > >>
> > >>These days, everybody is using ns, presumably because it's free,
> which
> > >>arguably is of benefit towards students and their universities. (I
> > >>wouldn't want to be a student trying to use Opnet and have the
> > >>license expire because academics who don't use Opnet are bickering
> > >>about which budget payment for the next year's license should come
> out
> > >>of. Or be considering going part-time as a PhD student and realising
> > >>you'd then being exposed to license and server access worries. Or
> > >>discovering there's been an Opnet upgrade and the user interface has
> > >>changed entirely. Again. In some very important respects, ns gives
> PhD
> > >>students slightly more control over their destinies.)
> > >>
> > >>I spent a couple of years in the late 90s answering mail on the
> > >>ns-users list; I was the first in my university to use ns, so got to
> > >>grips with it very very slowly, while others who followed me got on
> > >>far faster, since there was some local help for installation etc.,
> and
> > >>once over those hurdles they actually knew how to program. (as a
> > >>strategy this worked -- I received enough help from others that I
> > >>could figure out how to create some trivial solvable problems using
> > >>ns, write them up, and graduate. But it's risky and not for
> everyone.)
> > >>
> > >>In answering questions on ns (while also asking unanswered questions
> > >>more of the form 'these documented commands don't work and ns
> crashes!
> > >>Why?' -- ns multicast is a complete trainwreck, PIM-SM never worked
> > >>for me), I have now left myself open to years and years of questions
> > >>from yahoo/hotmail-using students who have trouble stringing coherent
> > >>sentences together. I imagine it's much the same for anyone else who
> > >>has contributed to ns, and shudder to think how much mail e.g. Floyd
> > >>or Heidemann must get on a daily basis. This discourages experienced
> > >>participation in the ns-users mailing list; after graduation I
> > >>realised I had to unsubscribe for my own sanity.
> > >>
> > >>Yes, a moderated ns-users list would be a good thing, but it would be
> > >>a full-time job, and there's no ns-related charitable foundation.
> > >>(Although sourceforge can accept paypal donations, so there could be
> a
> > >>way of channelling money... hmmm. What's the business case? What's
> > >>the selling point for donations?)
> > >>
> > >>But complaining about ns misses the point. You may as well complain
> > >>about why universities don't teach you practical programming 'here's
> a
> > >>ten-year-old codebase and here's how to figure out how it works'
> > >>skills. Universities just expect you pick everything up by osmosis;
> > >>hey, get students to spend enough time in a room with computers, and
> > >>maybe they'll learn to control them. The principle works with
> > >>libraries, books and reading, right?
> > >>
> > >>Universities are effectively trying to outsource their support
> > >>costs, too, in an increasingly short-term world.
> > >>
> > >>L.
> > >>
> > >>recommends http://polaris.gseis.ucla.edu/pagre/network.html
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>On Tue, 13 Sep 2005, Detlef Bosau wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Please don=B4t wonder when I ask this here.
> > >>>
> > >>> I placed this question (dynamic AWND) yesterday into the ns-users
> list,
> > >>> after having subscribed to this list again after a break of about
> two
> > >>> years.
> > >>>
> > >>> I think, I=B4m going to unsubscribe again. The ns-users list is
> simply
> > >>> useless. One of the most important facts in using mailing lists is
> that
> > >>> after the third question like "Urgent!!!!!!!! I lost my
> shoes!!!!!!",
> > >>> "Urgent!!!!! Need help!!!!! I=B4m going to take an exam!!!! Help
> me!!!!=
> > >>!"
> > >>> Or "I cannot install the ns2, there are much of this funny files
> ending
> > >>> with .cc, what=B4s hat?", "Where is the ns2 documentation? There
> are mu=
> > >>ch
> > >>> of that strange .h files, but they are apparently no _help_ files"
> etc.
> > >>> etc. etc., any user who has in fact an idea of what the ns2 is or
> what
> > >>> programming is all about will simply unsubscribe. In addition, it
> is
> > >>> simply not possible to follow this lare amount of mails there.
> > >>>
> > >>> Perhaps, one could think about a ns-users list with a better
> > >>> administration. At least questions like: "which linux must i
> install
> > >>> on my nt?" or "will nt work in mac when i install my ns in linux?"
> > >>> or similar should be made to disappear. It=B4s not only annoying
> but
> > >>> simply impossible to pick out that one useful post of the hundred
> > >>> posts each day that way.
> > >>>
> > >>> >From my own observation, I=B4ve seen that there are universities
> the
> > >>> students of which boast with large ns2 knowlege - however in fact,
> ther=
> > >>e
> > >>> is none.
> > >>> And there is a clear reason for this: There is no introduction into
> 
> the
> > >>> ns2, no lectures, no ns2 users group etc. etc. at these
> universities.
> > >>>
> > >>> In nearly every village in Germany you have a Linux Users Group.
> > >>>
> > >>> I don=B4t know how this is in Stuttgart but in larger and more
> importan=
> > >>t
> > >>> villages like Markl/Inn or Oberammergau you surely find one ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>> So, if there is some guy having problems with Linux, he can ask
> there
> > >>> and will perhaps get assistance. In addition, one can arrange some
> kind
> > >>> of kknowledge transfer and education there.
> > >>>
> > >>> Please excuse me, when I=B4m upset on this one. The ns2 is a useful
> 
> too=
> > >>l.
> > >>> It is very common and it=B4s, in general, a real good work.
> > >>> (It can be seen, however, that many programmers contributed to this
> 
> wor=
> > >>k
> > >>> and that not all of them are equally skilled. But that=B4s
> > >>> life.) It would be a pity, when a useful and helpful program with
> many
> > >>> men years of work in it and much excellent knowledge therein
> > >>> will perhaps become less attractive in the long run, because there
> is n=
> > >>o
> > >>> useful venue to discuss ns2 matters.
> > >>>
> > >>> >From what I=B4ve seen in this one single day, I=B4m about to
> suggest t=
> > >>o
> > >>> close the ns-users list and to start a new discussion venue from
> > >>> scratch.
> > >>> I don=B4t believe that ns-users can be salvaged.
> > >>>
> > >>> Detlef
> > >>>
> > >>> --
> > >>> Detlef Bosau
> > >>> Galileistrasse 30
> > >>> 70565 Stuttgart
> > >>> Mail: detlef.bosau at web.de
> > >>> Web: http://www.detlef-bosau.de
> > >>> Mobile: +49 172 681 9937
> > >>
> > >><http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/L.Wood/><L.Wood at eim.surrey.ac.uk>
> >
> > cheers
> >
> > jon
> >
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Alessandro Vivas Andrade
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