[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Jon Crowcroft
Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 01:34:29 PDT 2012
in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
hand
they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
what many DO have is phones and laptops.
manets can be usefully built out of these.
in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
target for the other side
in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
your move, sunshine.
In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>
>>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet radio
>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>>
>>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for anything
>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>>>>
>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>>>
>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?
>>>>
>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used for.
>>>> They cannot explain.
>>>>
>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I am
>>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Pars
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>>>>
>>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>>>>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>>>> >>> In missive <
>>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
>>>>> pointers were given)
>>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.
>>>>> >>>
>>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any hope
>>>>> of
>>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>d/
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>--
>>>>> >> Dave Crocker
>>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>>> >> bbiw.net
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> jon
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>
>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=
>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_=
>>quote">
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
>>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
>>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
>>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet rad=
>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular networ=
>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=
>>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can imagine and=
>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection of o=
>>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>
>>
>><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <=
>>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
>>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
>>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>
>><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=
>>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><bloc=
>>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
>>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>
>>
>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>><br>
>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn't chang=
>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask t=
>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wh=
>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>
>>
>><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"=
>>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
>>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>
>>
>>
>><br>
>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>><br>
>>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net" target=3D"_=
>>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>><div><div><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
>>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
>>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior=
>> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=
>> is not relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any=
>> hope of<br>
>>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>d/<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><b=
>>r>
>><br>
>></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span class=3D"HOEnZ=
>>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br><=
>>br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div>
>></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"http://www.c=
>>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc=
>>e.org</a><br><br>
>>
>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
cheers
jon
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