[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Jon Crowcroft
Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 02:35:20 PDT 2012
If you take a little while to read the literature on disasters,
you will know that the typical delay before the emergency services
arrive is approximately 72 hours.
A ver good text if you want a summary of many
real world disasters is this book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paradise-Built-Hell-Extraordinary-Communities/dp/0670021075
The use of MANET (and in extreme low connectivit cases, DTN)
is better than nothing.
vehicular use of infrastructure is expensive - car-to-car networks
are clearly a very good way to get high capacity low latency data
_along_ the higheay, especially in rural areas where incentives to
deploy a lot of infrastructure is low right now.
of course, you are right that the miltary don't tell us anything,
except they funded the Internet, through DARPA (D=defense) and
told Berkeley to release the BSD source code for TCP/IP which led
to a public free, unencombered high quality code base for everyone
to learn from, so yes, as usual you're right and I dont know
anything
In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
>>> hand
>>>
>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>>
>>>
>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
>>
>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
>>
>>
>>
>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>>
>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
>>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
>>
>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
>>
>>
>>
>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>> target for the other side
>>>
>>
>>
>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
>>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
>>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>>
>>>
>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
>>infrastructure
>>network.
>>
>>
>>
>>> your move, sunshine.
>>>
>>> In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>>
>>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>
>>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>
>>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
>>> radio
>>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
>>> anything
>>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications,
>>> not the
>>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used
>>> for.
>>> >>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet" but I
>>> am
>>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Cheers,
>>> >>>> Pars
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
>>> >>>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> Par
>>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>>> relevant.
>>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has any
>>> hope
>>> >>>>> of
>>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>>>> >>d/
>>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>>>> >>--
>>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
>>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> cheers
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> jon
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>--
>>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>
>>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>
>>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
>>> http://www.ietf.org/=
>>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
>>> class=3D"gmail_=
>>> >>quote">
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
>>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
>>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> style=
>>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
>>> rad=
>>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> networ=
>>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>> target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
>>> imagine and=
>>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection
>>> of o=
>>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"
>>> <=
>>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
>>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon
>>> Cro=
>>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>> wrote:<br><bloc=
>>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>> #cc=
>>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn't
>>> chang=
>>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
>>> ask t=
>>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>> themselves wh=
>>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>> Internet"=
>>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
>>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>> 0.8e=
>>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
>>> target=3D"_=
>>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>> >><div><div><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
>>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
>>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
>>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,
>>> Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant
>>> prior=
>>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>> Crowcroft), it=
>>> >> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or has
>>> any=
>>> >> hope of<br>
>>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> </a><b=
>>> >>r>
>>> >><br>
>>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
>>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
>>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> </a><br><=
>>> >>br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> http://www.c=
>>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
>>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>
>>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> jon
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>
>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =
>><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=
>>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
>> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=
>>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>hand<br>
>><br>
>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task=
>> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br><br>=
>>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=
>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>
>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>><br>
>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=
>>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the netw=
>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to=
>> work.<br>
>><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do not =
>>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do obscur=
>>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most expensive=
>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
>><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>><br>
>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=
>> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
>>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>
>>your move, sunshine.<br>
>><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
>>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padd=
>>ing-left:1ex">
>>In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
>>il.<br>
>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>><br>
>>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
>>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
>>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since AR=
>>PA Packet radio<br>
>>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, veh=
>>icular<br>
>>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"http://thing=
>>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
>>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communi=
>>cations, not the<br>
>>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a href=3D=
>>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
>>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" pos=
>>er syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<=
>>br>
>>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask thi=
>>s question?<br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves wha=
>>t it is used for.<br>
>>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for th=
>>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
>>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argume=
>>nt(s))<br>
>>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it =
>>solves<br>
>>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever vers=
>>ion you choose<br>
>>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
>>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=
>>e:<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
>>=A0>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
>>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
>>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to=
>> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was give=
>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thr=
>>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>=A0>>>>> of<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant=
>>...<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=
>>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>> --<br>
>>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
>>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blan=
>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a hr=
>>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://w=
>>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a href=3D=
>>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
>>il-arch=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
>>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
>>=A0>>quote"><br>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D3=
>>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
>>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
>>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><=
>>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D3D"=
>>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
>>left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist sinc=
>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
>>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehic=
>>ular networ=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D=
>>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
>>t; target=3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D=
>>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can imag=
>>ine and=3D<br>
>>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the inters=
>>ection of o=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=
>>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
>>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
>>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D3D"attribution&q=
>>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
>>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
>>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
>>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
>>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
>>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span>=
>>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:=
>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot; poser sy=
>>ndrome<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>=A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
>>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
>>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Intern=
>>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
>>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they di=
>>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
>>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we want f=
>>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>=
>>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>br></div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
>>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version you c=
>>hoose<br><br>
>>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto=
>>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>" tar=
>>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
>>=A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=
>>lt;br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D=
>>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
>>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>" target=3D3D"=
>>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
>>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
>>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I e=
>>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
>>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 point=
>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this thread=
>> has been, or has any=3D<br>
>>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant...=
>><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>=
>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http:=
>>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D3D"_b=
>>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><=
>>;/a><b=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>r><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0>><span><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
>>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
>>>
>>=A0>>b"><font color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
>>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
>>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
>>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
>>a><br><=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D3D"=
>>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://=
>>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">on=
>>tent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=
>>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
>>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&l=
>>t;br><br><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>><br>
>>=A0cheers<br>
>><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>><br>
>></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=
>>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
>>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>
>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
cheers
jon
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