[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf
pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 19:38:36 PDT 2012
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> the goal is to have less people die - our s/w works in existing
> phones - having it deploy will cost zero (unlike ballons) and
> saving more than zero lives is quite a good achievement for
> somethign costing zero, but it also delivers a situational
> awareness to the emergency services when they eventually arrive
>
Well actually MANET is dangerous. Someone should inform the red cross
that it is not really a solution so that they think about real solutions.
You still don't answer my question about network partitions.
We are talking about human life here cost is not an issue. Billions of
dollars
are spent for the army, you worry about balloon cost? This is not a research
problem this is an education problem.
> meanwhile, back on discrete IP, the problem you have to solve when
> you have a set of domains running different protocols, is a system
> tp provide routing between translation points - this is something
> we did before the internet was called the internet - back in 1980,
> there were several different protocol families in the world - e.g.
> tthe public and academic packet switched networks running the X.25
> network ayer protocol, networks running DECNET, nets running SNA
> and so on - so we design protocoll translaters - and we deisnged a
> name based scheme to provide mapping from application layer down
> to transport, to beable to name the "nexthop" in the multiprotocol
> route (the ideas in this, Yellow Book Transport Service and name
> based route construction is visible in the two ideas I mentioned,
> Paul Francis' IPNL and Ran Atkinson's work on ILNP - I encourage
> you to have a look at those, as they speak to the original
> document you circulated...and fill in a lot of details on how to
> build such a system.
>
>
20 years ago we didn't have the IP address shortage problem. I solve this
problem.
There is no scuh thing as lucky design, like I did this 20 years ago for
problem X we can
use it now for problem Y. There is no such thing.
You were trying to solve other problems.
I am trying to solve a different problem.
>
>
> In missive <CACQuieZsrj5i1XJoruVLam_O4cNYsk0ZU_OvbY_sG0WEx_r+og at mail.gmail.
> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>
> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft
> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
> >>>
> >>> i dont.
> >>>
> >>> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
> >>> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
> >>> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days...
> >>>
> >>> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
> >>> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
> >>> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
> >>> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing
> with
> >>> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot
> >>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> something mon golfier frere hasn't
> >>>
> >>> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of
> who is
> >>> where and what resources are still working would be good
> >>>
> >>> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup
> diasters
> >>> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were
> looters)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:
> >>>
> >>> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a
> big
> >>> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
> >>> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
> >>> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
> >>> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
> >>> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
> >>> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
> >>> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
> >>> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
> >>> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
> >>> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
> >>> >>>optimse resoruce allocation.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>the balloons are visible here
> >>> >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/
> >>> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>In missive
> >>> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
> >>> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been
> studied
> >>> in
> >>> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they
> have to
> >>> >>> >>> hand
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> >>> japan,
> >>> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> >>> desribed
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
> >>> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to
> >>> work.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
> >>> great
> >>> >>> >>> target for the other side
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really
> >>> research,
> >>> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They
> can
> >>> just
> >>> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be
> a big
> >>> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under
> bridges.
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
> >>> >>> >>infrastructure
> >>> >>> >>network.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> your move, sunshine.
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> In missive
> >>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
> >>> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> since
> >>> ARPA Packet
> >>> >>> >>> radio
> >>> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> >>> vehicular
> >>> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by
> >>> definition, for
> >>> >>> >>> anything
> >>> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> >>> communications,
> >>> >>> >>> not the
> >>> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <
> pars.mutaf at gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask
> this
> >>> question?
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves
> what
> >>> it is used
> >>> >>> >>> for.
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
> >>> >>>Internet" but I
> >>> >>> >>> am
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Pars
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> argument(s))
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> solves
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version
> you
> >>> choose
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave
> Crocker
> >>> typed:
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>>
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
> >>> >>> >>> Par
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior
> >>> work (many
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
> Crowcroft), it
> >>> is not
> >>> >>> >>> relevant.
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has
> been,
> >>> >>>or has any
> >>> >>> >>> hope
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> of
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>> jon
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> --
> >>> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
> >>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
> >>> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
> >>> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
> >>> >>> >>> >>quote">
> >>> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
> >>> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
> >>> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
> >>> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> >>> class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> >>> >>> style=
> >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> since
> >>> >>>ARPA Packet
> >>> >>> >>> rad=
> >>> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> networks,
> >>> vehicular
> >>> >>> >>> networ=
> >>> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>> >>> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
> >>> http://thing.it"
> >>> >>> >>> target=
> >>> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for
> anything we
> >>> can
> >>> >>> >>> imagine and=
> >>> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> >>> intersection
> >>> >>> >>> of o=
> >>> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48,
> "Pars
> >>> >>>Mutaf"
> >>> >>> >>> <=
> >>> >>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
> >>> >>> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
> >>> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012
> at
> >>> >>>7:17 PM, Jon
> >>> >>> >>> Cro=
> >>> >>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
> >>> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a>></span>
> >>> >>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
> >>> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> >>> >>> #cc=
> >>> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser
> >>> syndrome<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No
> I
> >>> didn't
> >>> >>> >>> chang=
> >>> >>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet?
> Did
> >>> we really
> >>> >>> >>> ask t=
> >>> >>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did
> not ask
> >>> >>> >>> themselves wh=
> >>> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for
> the
> >>> >>> >>> Internet"=
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> <br><br>Cheers,
> >>> >>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
> >>> >>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>> >>> >>> 0.8e=
> >>> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> argument(s))<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> solves<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version
> you
> >>> choose<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_=
> >>> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave
> Crocker
> >>> typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >><div><div><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
> >>> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
> >>> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
> >>> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
> >>> </a>>,
> >>> >>> >>> Par<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read
> the
> >>> relevant
> >>> >>> >>> prior=
> >>> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by
> Jon
> >>> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it=
> >>> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread
> has
> >>> >>>been, or has
> >>> >>> >>> any=
> >>> >>> >>> >> hope of<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not
> relevant...<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=3D"_blank">
> >>> bbiw.net
> >>> >>> >>> </a><b=
> >>> >>> >>> >>r>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br
> clear=3D"all"><span
> >>> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
> >>> >>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
> >>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>> </a><br><=
> >>> >>> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> >>> href=3D"
> >>> >>> >>> http://www.c=
> >>> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
> >>> >>> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> cheers
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> jon
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM,
> Jon
> >>> >>>Crowcroft =
> >>> >>> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> >>> target=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>> >>>wrote:<br><blockquote=
> >>> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> >>>#ccc soli=
> >>> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been
> studied
> >>> in<br>
> >>> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they
> have
> >>> to<br>
> >>> >>> >>hand<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> >>> japan,<br>
> >>> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> >>> desribed<br>
> >>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the
> >>> >>>users' task=
> >>> >>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
> >>> >>>them.<br><br>=
> >>> >>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt
> >>> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=
> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
> >>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated
> >>> >>>users in a di=
> >>> >>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the
> rest
> >>> >>>of the netw=
> >>> >>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
> >>> >>>probability to=
> >>> >>> >> work.<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
> >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
> >>> great<br>
> >>> >>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I
> >>> >>>personally do not =
> >>> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because
> they
> >>> >>>do obscur=
> >>> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the
> most
> >>> >>>expensive=
> >>> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
> >>> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
> >>> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a
> >>> big<br>
> >>> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under
> bridges.<br>
> >>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are
> *unnecessarily
> >>> >>>dangerous*.=
> >>> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure
> >>> >>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
> >>> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
> >>> >>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
> >>> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
> >>> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=
> >>> >>> >>ing-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>In missive
> >>> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
> >>> >>> >>il.<br>
> >>> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
> >>> >>> >>g12602.html"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
> >>> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
> >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
> >>> >exist since AR=
> >>> >>> >>PA Packet radio<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> >>> >>>networks, veh=
> >>> >>> >>icular<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad
> deployed.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http://thing=
> >>> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for
> >>> anything<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union
> of
> >>> >>>all communi=
> >>> >>> >>cations, not the<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one
> technology.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"
> >>> >>><<a href=3D=
> >>> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>>
> >>> wrote:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon
> Crowcroft
> >>> <<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
> >>> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as
> >>> the<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for
> >>> >>>you" pos=
> >>> >>> >>er syndrome<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a
> workable
> >>> >>>solution,<=
> >>> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes
> the<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we
> >>> >>>really ask thi=
> >>> >>> >>s question?<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> >>> >>>themselves wha=
> >>> >>> >>t it is used for.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do
> we
> >>> >>>want for th=
> >>> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and
> the
> >>> >>>E2E argume=
> >>> >>> >>nt(s))<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change
> the
> >>> >>>problem it =
> >>> >>> >>solves<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve,
> >>> >>>whichever vers=
> >>> >>> >>ion you choose<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
> >>> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave
> Crocker
> >>> typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> >>> >>>Crowcroft wrot=
> >>> >>> >>e:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> <a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
> >>> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
> >>> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I
> >>> >>>encourage you to=
> >>> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1
> >>> >>>pointer was give=
> >>> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly
> relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of
> >>> >>>whether this thr=
> >>> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was
> >>> >>>not relevant=
> >>> >>> >>...<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg
> >>> InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"
> http://bbiw.net"
> >>> target=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blan=
> >>> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
> >>> >>>See:<br><br><a hr=
> >>> >>> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w=
> >>> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
> >>> >>>
> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
> >>> >>>href=3D=
> >>> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
> >>> >>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
> >>> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>><span dir=3D3=
> >>> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
> >>> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
> >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
> >>> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><=
> >>> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> >>> >>>class=3D3D"=
> >>> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> >>>solid;padding-=
> >>> >>> >>left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use
> cases
> >>> >>>exist sinc=
> >>> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> >>> >>>networks, vehic=
> >>> >>> >>ular networ=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad
> deployed.</p><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one
> <a
> >>> >>>href=3D3D=
> >>> >>> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
> >>> >>> >>t; target=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://thing.it"
> >>> >>>target=3D=
> >>> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for
> anything
> >>> >>>we can imag=
> >>> >>> >>ine and=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications,
> not
> >>> >>>the inters=
> >>> >>> >>ection of o=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18
> Sep
> >>> >>>2012 17:4=
> >>> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
> >>> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
> >>> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
> >>> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
> >>> >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q=
> >>> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
> >>> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div
> >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
> >>> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span
> >>> >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
> >>> >>> >>3D"mailto:<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
> >>> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
> >>> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> >>> </a></a>&gt;</span>=
> >>> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> >>>style=3D3D"margin:=
> >>> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as
> the<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for
> >>> >>>you&quot; poser sy=
> >>> >>> >>ndrome<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable
> >>> solution,<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes
> the<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the
> >>> >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
> >>> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want
> for
> >>> >>>the Intern=
> >>> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for
> >>> >>>example, they di=
> >>> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain.
> <br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread
> &quot;What do
> >>> >>>we want f=
> >>> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>><br><br>=
> >>> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
> >>> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
> >>> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> >>> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
> >>> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> >>> >>>argument(s))<br&=
> >>> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> >>> >>>solves<br&=
> >>> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever
> >>> >>>version you c=
> >>> >>> >>hoose<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto=
> >>> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> >>> </a>"
> >>> >>>tar=
> >>> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>blank"><a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
> >>> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave
> Crocker
> >>> >>>typed:<=
> >>> >>> >>;br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> >>> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&=
> >>> >>> >>lt;br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive
> &lt;<a
> >>> >>>href=3D3D=
> >>> >>> >>"mailto:<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
> >>> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
> >>> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
> >>> >>>target=3D3D"=
> >>> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a
> >>> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
> >>> >>> >>ail.gmail.com">
> >>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
> >>> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf
> >>> typed:<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> >>> >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e=
> >>> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> >>> >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point=
> >>> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
> >>> >>>relevant.<br><=
> >>> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of
> whether
> >>> >>>this thread=
> >>> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was
> not
> >>> >>>relevant...=
> >>> >>> >><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave
> Crocker<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
> >>> >>>InternetWorking<br>=
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http:=
> >>> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
> >>> >>>target=3D3D"_b=
> >>> >>> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><=
> >>> >>> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>r><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><span><font
> >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
> >>> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
> >>> >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font
> >>> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
> >>> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
> >>> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
> >>> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>> >>cience.org"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
> >>> >>> >>a><br><=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>br><br>
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
> >>> >>>clear=3D3D"=
> >>> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
> >>> >>>href=3D"http://=
> >>> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">on=
> >>> >>> >>tent-based-science.org</a>"
> >>> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
> >>> >>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&l=
> >>> >>> >>t;br><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--
> >>> <br><a href=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> >>> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
> >>> >>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> cheers
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> jon
> >>> >>
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>> jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>
> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee
> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>
> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon
> Cro=
> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> wrote:<br><bloc=
> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> #cc=
> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity<br>
> >><br>
> >>i dont.<br>
> >><br>
> >>lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones<br>
> >>running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are<br>
> >>and send hashtag data =A0with sensor net is about 7 days...<br>
> >><br>
> >>coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and<br>
> >>landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see<br>
> >>for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),<br>
> >>it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing
> with<br>
> >>the actual human movement/location patterns in
> mind....<br></blockquote><di=
> >>v><br><br>You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms,
> you ca=
> >>nnot<br>solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.
> <br>
> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt =
> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >><br>
> >>something mon golfier frere hasn't<br>
> >><br>
> >>being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who
> is<b=
> >>r>
> >>where and what resources are still working would be good<br>
> >><br>
> >>i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup
> diasters<br=
> >>>
> >>(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were
> looters)<br=
> >>>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day
> typed:<br>
> >><div><div class=3D"h5"><br>
> >>=A0>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. =A0Which seems
> lik=
> >>e a big<br>
> >>=A0>>assumption. =A0Not much of a disaster if you still have
> power.<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell
> towers)=
> >> in<br>
> >>=A0>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are
> simply<br>
> >>=A0>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the
> skills=
> >>et,<br>
> >>=A0>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during
> dis=
> >>asters<br>
> >>=A0>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless
> net =
> >>for<br>
> >>=A0>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network
> could =
> >>also<br>
> >>=A0>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational
> awaren=
> >>ess<br>
> >>=A0>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief
> teams=
> >> find<br>
> >>=A0>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where
> to p=
> >>rovide<br>
> >>=A0>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system
> for ho=
> >>w to<br>
> >>=A0>>>optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>the balloons are visible here<br>
> >>=A0>>><a href=3D"http://xkcd.com/1110/" target=3D"_blank">
> http://x=
> >>kcd.com/1110/</a><br>
> >>=A0>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>In missive
> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdc=
> >>z+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.<br>
> >>=A0>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
> Crowcroft<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
> >>">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of
> whu=
> >>ch have been studied in<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do
> wit=
> >>h resources they have to<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> hand<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> they may be spread over a large area
> (e.g a=
> >>ll of indonesia, japan,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> california) and not be prepared with
> giant =
> >>ballons as you desribed<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users'
> tas=
> >>k of course.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare
> them.<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> what many DO have is phones and
> laptops.<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of
> these.<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a
> disas=
> >>ter scenario<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are too far away from the rest
> of t=
> >>he network.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very
> low =
> >>probability to work.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your
> giant=
> >> ballon idea is a great<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target for the other side<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I personally do not argue for the army..
> This is=
> >> not really research,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they do obscure things that we do
> not ev=
> >>en know. They can just<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones.
> They do=
> >> not care.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a
> giant=
> >> ballon would be a big<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> drag, especially when you go through
> tunnel=
> >>s and under bridges.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
> dangerous*=
> >>. Just use the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>infrastructure<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>network.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> your move, sunshine.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> In missive<br>
>
> >>=A0>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail
> =
> >>.gmail.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charse=
> >>t=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough
> Jon. =
> >>See:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/m=
> >>ail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.i=
> >>etf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at
> 10:17 AM=
> >>, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcr=
> >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example,
> sur=
> >>e. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> radio<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield
> networks,=
> >> disaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some
> actually in=
> >> use ad deployed.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't
> for =
> >>just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a>
> is, by =
> >>definition, for<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> anything<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and
> realize.=
> >>..it is the union of all communications,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> not the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one
> notion =
> >>with one technology.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48,
> "=
> >>;Pars Mutaf" <<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com
> ">pars.mutaf at gm=
> >>ail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18,
> 2012 at=
> >> 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.C=
> >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we
> use=
> >>d to talk about as the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my
> problem is=
> >> too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically,
> whenever=
> >> you offer a workable solution,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of
> the p=
> >>roblem) changes the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the
> ass=
> >>umptions)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't
> change =
> >>the problem:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for
> the=
> >> Internet? Did we really ask this question?<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for
> example,=
> >> they did not ask themselves what it is used<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> for.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot
> explain.<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new
> thr=
> >>ead "What do we want for the<br>
> >>=A0>>>Internet" =A0but I<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> am<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I
> should do=
> >> this.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice
> thi=
> >>ngs about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is
> reall=
> >>y hard to change the problem it solves<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it
> still d=
> >>oesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok,
> maybe no=
> >>t IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive
> <<a h=
> >>ref=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net<=
> >>/a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On
> 9/18/=
> >>2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> In =
> >>missive <<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tF=
> >>cP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5Pg=
> >>T+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> s M=
> >>utaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> =A0=
> >> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were
> given=
> >>)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> =A0=
> >> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>>
> it =
> >>is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in
> the b=
> >>roader sense of whether this thread has been,<br>
> >>=A0>>>or has any<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> hope<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> of<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> =A0>>being, c=
> >>onstructive, it was not relevant...<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> =A0>>d/<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>>
> =A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> =A0Dave=
> >> Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> =A0Bran=
> >>denburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>
> =A0<a h=
> >>ref=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> --<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"
> http://www.c=
> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-scienc=
> >>e.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.content-ba=
> >>sed-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a>=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=
> >>=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quote=
> >>d-printable<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough
> Jon. =
> >>See:<br><br><a href=3D3D"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/m=
> >>sg12602.html"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D=
> >>" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.h=
> >>tml</a><br><br><br><br><div<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>quote"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at
> 10:17 AM=
> >>, Jon Crowcroft <span<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=
> >>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a
> href=3D"m=
> >>ailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcr=
> >>oft at cl=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk"
> ta=
> >>rget=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span>
> wrote:<br&g=
> >>t;<blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> style=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;bor=
> >>der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET
> example,=
> >> sure. Many use cases exist since<br>
> >>=A0>>>ARPA Packet<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> rad=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield
> networks, d=
> >>isaster recovery networks, vehicular<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> networ=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad
> dep=
> >>loyed.</p><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet
> isn&#3=
> >>9;t for just one <a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> target=3D=
> >>"_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a hr=
> >>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by
> defi=
> >>nition, for anything we can<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> imagine and=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union
> of al=
> >>l communications, not the intersection<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> of o=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one
> technology.&l=
> >>t;/p><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><div
> class=3D3D"gmail_qu=
> >>ote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars<br>
> >>=A0>>>Mutaf&quot;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> &lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> =
> >>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf=
> >>@gmail=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt;
> wrote:<=
> >>;br type=3D3D"attribution"><blockquote<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e"
> style=3D3D"margin:0=
> >> 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div
> clas=
> >>s=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at<br>
> >>=A0>>>7:17 PM, Jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Cro=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span
> dir=3D3D"lt=
> >>r">&lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.u=
> >>k">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank">=
> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</=
> >>a></a>&gt;</span><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>kquote
> class=3D3D"gmail_quo=
> >>te" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0<br>
> >>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> #cc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>c
> solid;padding-left:1ex"&g=
> >>t;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk
> abo=
> >>ut as the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too
> hard=
> >> even for you&quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you
> offer a =
> >>workable solution,<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem)
> chang=
> >>es the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the
> assumptions)<=
> >>br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> chang=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>e the
> problem:<br><br&g=
> >>t;What do we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> ask t=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>his
> question?<br><br>=
> >>;Take MANET for example, they did not ask<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> themselves wh=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They
> cannot e=
> >>xplain. <br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a
> new th=
> >>read &quot;What do we want for the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I
> sho=
> >>uld do this. <br><br>Cheers,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>br></div><blockquote=
> >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,=
> >>204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about
> IP =
> >>(and the E2E argument(s))<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to
> cha=
> >>nge the problem it solves<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still
> doesn&#39;=
> >>t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not
> IPv5:)<b=
> >>r><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a
> href=3D=
> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> ">50589DCC.20=
> >>30808 at dcrocker.net</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>blank"><a
> href=3D"mailto=
> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> </a></a>=
> >>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>><div><div><br>=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On
> 9/18/201=
> >>2 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In=
> >> missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%252BV2X=
> >>V1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmai=
> >>l.com</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-=
> >>s=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWf=
> >>M58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1t=
> >>FcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Par<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s =
> >>Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> prior=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were
> given)=
> >><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> is not
> relevant.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it=
> >> is exactly relevant.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the
> broa=
> >>der sense of whether this thread has<br>
> >>=A0>>>been, or has<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> any=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being,
> cons=
> >>tructive, it was not relevant...<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0Dave =
> >>Crocker<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0Brand=
> >>enburg InternetWorking<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0<a=
> >> href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
> http://bbiw.n=
> >>et</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://bbiw.net" t=
> >>arget=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><b=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>r><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0che=
> >>ers<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><span><font
> color=3D3D&=
> >>quot;#888888"><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>></font></span></b=
> >>lockquote></div><br><br
> clear=3D3D"all"><=
> >>span<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>b"><font
> color=3D3D&q=
> >>uot;#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> targ=
> >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
> ta=
> >>rget=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank"><a hr=
> >>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.co=
> >>ntent-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> </a><br><=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>></font></span></b=
> >>lockquote></div><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>></blockquote></div>&=
> >>lt;br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>--
> <br><a h=
> >>ref=3D3D"<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.c"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"
> http://ontent-based-s=
> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>"
> target=3D3=
> >>D"_blank"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> <a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-scienc"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a><br><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>
> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-science.org"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div
> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On =
> >>Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon<br>
> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span
> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<=
> >>a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.C=
> >>rowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon=
> >>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&gt;&l=
> >>t;/span><br>
> >>=A0>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D&qu=
> >>ot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
> >>=A0>>>#ccc soli=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of
> whuch ha=
> >>ve been studied in<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do
> with r=
> >>esources they have to<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>hand<br><br>
> =A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g
> all of=
> >> indonesia, japan,<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant
> ballo=
> >>ns as you desribed<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g=
> >>t;Preparing the balloons is not the<br>
> >>=A0>>>users&#39; task=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> of course.
> <br><br>Organizations li=
> >>ke red cross will prepare<br>
> >>=A0>>>them.<br><br>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote
> class=3D3D"=
> >>gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt<br>
> >>=A0>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding=
> >>-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>what many DO have is phones and
> laptops.<br&g=
> >>t;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>manets can be usefully built out of
> these.<br=
> >>><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g=
> >>t;<br>MANET may not work for isolated<br>
> >>=A0>>>users in a di=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are
> too f=
> >>ar away from the rest<br>
> >>=A0>>>of the netw=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not
> only us=
> >>eless, it has a very low<br>
> >>=A0>>>probability to=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> work.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote
> class=
> >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);pad=
> >>ding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant
> ball=
> >>on idea is a great<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>target for the other
> side<br></blockquo=
> >>te><div><br><br>I<br>
> >>=A0>>>personally do not =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really
> research=
> >>,<br>because they<br>
> >>=A0>>>do obscur=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can
> just=
> >> <br>use the most<br>
> >>=A0>>>expensive=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> satellite phones. They do not care.
> <br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote
> class=
> >>=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);pad=
> >>ding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant
> ball=
> >>on would be a big<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels
> and=
> >> under bridges.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>><br></blockquote><div><br&g=
> >>t;Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily<br>
> >>=A0>>>dangerous*.=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> Just use the infrastructure<br>
>
> >>=A0>>><br>network.<br><br>=3DA0</div><b=
> >>lockquote class=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D"mar=
> >>gin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
> >>=A0>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>><br></blockquote><div></div=
> >>><div></div><blockquote<br>
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8ex;border-le=
> >>ft:1px solid<br>
> >>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ing-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive<br>
>
> >>=A0>>>&lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g@
> =
> >>mail.gma=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>il.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=
> >>b8d<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type:
> text/plain; c=
> >>harset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div
> class=3D3D"h5">=
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question
> enough =
> >>Jon. See:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/w=
> >>eb/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/=
> >>web/manet/current/ms=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>g12602.html"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.=
> >>org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/mail=
> >>-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at
> 10:=
> >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam=
> >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=3D"_blank=
> >>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET
> exa=
> >>mple, sure. Many use cases<br>
> >>>exist since AR=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>PA Packet radio<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days.
> Battlefield =
> >>networks, disaster recovery<br>
> >>=A0>>>networks, veh=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>icular<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;
> networks...some ac=
> >>tually in use ad deployed.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet
> isn&a=
> >>mp;#39;t for just one <a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing"
> target=3D"_blank">ht=
> >>tp://thing</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.it"
> target=3D3D"_blank"><a hr=
> >>ef=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by
> defi=
> >>nition, for anything<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine
> and=
> >> realize...it is the union of<br>
> >>=A0>>>all communi=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>cations, not the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection
> of on=
> >>e notion with one technology.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012
> 17:=
> >>48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
> >>=A0>>>&lt;<a href=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> pars.mutaf at gmail.=
> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> pars.mutaf at gmail.c=
> >>om">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On
> Tue, Se=
> >>p 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> <a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam=
> >>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:roft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">roft at cl.cam=
> >>.ac.uk</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th=
> >>is is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &a=
> >>mp;quot;my problem is too hard even for<br>
> >>=A0>>>you&quot; pos=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>er syndrome<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; ba=
> >>sically, whenever you offer a workable<br>
> >>=A0>>>solution,<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; th=
> >>e poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pr=
> >>oblem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I
> didn&=
> >>amp;#39;t change the problem:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What
> do we=
> >> want for the Internet? Did we<br>
> >>=A0>>>really ask thi=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>s question?<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take
> MANET=
> >> for example, they did not ask<br>
> >>=A0>>>themselves wha=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t it is used for.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They
> canno=
> >>t explain.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I
> would st=
> >>art a new thread &quot;What do we<br>
> >>=A0>>>want for th=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I
> am<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not
> sure i=
> >>f I should do this.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> Cheers,<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> Pars<br=
> >>><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; on=
> >>e of the nice things about IP (and the<br>
> >>=A0>>>E2E argume=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>nt(s))<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is=
> >> that it is really hard to change the<br>
> >>=A0>>>problem it =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>solves<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in=
> >> a way it still doesn&#39;t solve,<br>
> >>=A0>>>whichever vers=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ion you choose<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (w=
> >>ell, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In=
> >> missive &lt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at d">=
> >>50589DCC.2030808 at d</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://crocker.net"
> target=3D"_blank"=
> >>>crocker.net</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> typed:<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &l=
> >>t;a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=
> >>C2iWfM58iDwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> 2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.=
> >>gmail.com">2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>">CACQuiebE-sXD=
> >>ZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
> >>om">V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,
> Par<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I<br>
> >>=A0>>>encourage you to=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> read the relevant prior work
> (many<br><br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; po=
> >>inters were given)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1<br>
> >>=A0>>>pointer was give=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
> relevant.<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of<br>
> >>=A0>>>whether this thr=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of=
> >><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was<br>
> >>=A0>>>not relevant=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>...<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://bbiw.net"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://bbi=
> >>w.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> --<br&g=
> >>t;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> <a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-science.o=
> >>rg" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"
> target=
> >>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www=
> >>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-scie=
> >>nce.org</a></a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a
> hre=
> >>f=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.con=
> >>tent-based-science.org</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blan=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>k"><a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a></=
> >>a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--2=
> >>0cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type:
> text/html; ch=
> >>arset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: =
> >>quoted-printable<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question
> enough =
> >>Jon.<br>
> >>=A0>>>See:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a
> hr=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a
> href=
> >>=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D<=
> >>/a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://w"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">http://w</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D"
> target=3D"_=
> >>blank">ww.ietf.org/=3D3D</a></a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/curr=
> >>ent/msg12602.html&quot;&gt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"<a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
> >>=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D
> </a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.=
> >>org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12=
> >>602.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div=
> >> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<=
> >>br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at
> 10:=
> >>17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>=A0>>>&lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&=
> >>;lt;a hr=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:&=
> >>lt;a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam=
> >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam=
> >>.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;jon=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a
> href=3D3D"<a hr=
> >>ef=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk
> </a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://cam.ac.uk=
> >>" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt;
> wro=
> >>te:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;gmail_quote&quot;
> style=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0=
> >> 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc<br>
> >>=A0>>>solid;padding-=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take
> the M=
> >>ANET example, sure. Many use cases<br>
> >>=A0>>>exist sinc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield
> networ=
> >>ks, disaster recovery<br>
> >>=A0>>>networks, vehic=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in
> use a=
> >>d deployed.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The
> intern=
> >>et isn&amp;#39;t for just one &lt;a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a
> href=3D"http:/=
> >>/thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://thing.it"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a></a>&quo=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t; target=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&=
> >>;quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> target=3D"_b=
> >>lank">http://thing.it</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://thing.it=
> >>" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by
> definit=
> >>ion, for anything<br>
> >>=A0>>>we can imag=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ine and=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the
> union =
> >>of all communications, not<br>
> >>=A0>>>the inters=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one
> technolo=
> >>gy.&lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div
> class=3D3D3D&am=
> >>p;quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep<br>
> >>=A0>>>2012 17:4=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot;
> &a=
> >>mp;lt=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a
> href=3D3D3D&=
> >>quot;mailto:<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail
> .">p=
> >>ars.mutaf at gmail.</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>com"><a href=3D"mailto:
> pars.mutaf at gmail.=
> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a></a>&quot;<br>
>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;pars.m=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&=
> >>amp;gt; wrote:&lt;br<br>
> >>=A0>>>type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote
> class=3D3D3D&=
> >>quot;gmail_quot=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot;
> style=3D3D3D&am=
> >>p;quot;margin:0 0 0<br>
> >>=A0>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;b=
> >>r&gt;&lt;div<br>
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon
> Cro=3D3D&l=
> >>t;br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span<br>
>
> >>=A0>>>dir=3D3D3D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt=
> >>;a href=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam=
> >>.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=3D"_blank=
> >>">cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; =3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_bla=
> >>nk&quot;&gt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft
> ">Jon.C=
> >>rowcroft</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>@<a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">=
> >>Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&=
> >>lt;/span&gt=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;
> wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<b=
> >>r><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote
> class=3D3D3D&quo=
> >>t;gmail_quote&quot;<br>
> >>=A0>>>style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> #cc=3D3D<br><br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c
> solid;padding-left:1ex&am=
> >>p;quot;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to
> tal=
> >>k about as the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my
> problem is=
> >> too hard even for<br>
> >>=A0>>>you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you
> off=
> >>er a workable solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the
> problem) =
> >>changes the&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the<br>
>
> >>=A0>>>assumptions)&lt;br&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&am=
> >>p;lt;div=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I
> didn&amp;#39;=
> >>t chang=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the
> problem:&lt;br&am=
> >>p;gt;&lt;br&gt;What do we want for<br>
> >>=A0>>>the Intern=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his
> question?&lt;br&=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;Take MANET for<br>
> >>=A0>>>example, they di=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They
> can=
> >>not explain. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I
> would s=
> >>tart a new thread &amp;quot;What do<br>
> >>=A0>>>we want f=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>or the
> Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not
> sure i=
> >>f I should do this.<br>
> >>=A0>>>&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;Cheers,
> &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&gt=
> >>;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&=
> >>gt;&lt;blockquote<br>
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8e=
> >>=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px
> solid<br>
> >>=A0>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things
> abou=
> >>t IP (and the E2E<br>
> >>=A0>>>argument(s))&lt;br&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really
> hard t=
> >>o change the problem it<br>
> >>=A0>>>solves&lt;br&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still
> doesn&=
> >>;amp;#39;t solve, whichever<br>
> >>=A0>>>version you c=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not
> IPv5:)=
> >>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive
> &amp;lt;&=
> >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>:<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net=
> >>">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.203=
> >>0808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> </a></a>&quot;<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>>tar=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<=
> >>a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcr=
> >>ocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>">=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"=
> >>>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> </a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,=
> >> Dave Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>>typed:&lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;=
> >>div&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon<br>
> >>=A0>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt; In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;mailto:<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=
> >>C2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tF=
> >>cP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c
> ">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmai=
> >>l.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>om"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tF=
> >>cP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">
> 58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.co=
> >>m</a></a>&quot;<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw=
> >>O%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m
> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2=
> >>A at m</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ail.gmail.com"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">ail.gmail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2X=
> >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A@=
> >>mail.gmail.com</a></a>&=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,
> Par&lt;br&gt;=
> >><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt; s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0<br>
> >>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant
> prior=3D3D<=
> >>br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers
> were g=
> >>iven)&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0<br>
> >>=A0>>>&amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft),
> it=3D3D<br&g=
> >>t;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not
> relevant.&lt;br=
> >>&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&amp;gt; it is exactly<br>
> >>=A0>>>relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;in the broader sense of whether<br>
> >>=A0>>>this thread=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope
> of&lt;br&gt;&=
> >>lt;br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;being, constructive, it was not<br>
> >>=A0>>>relevant...=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;d/&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt;--&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt; =3D3DA0Dave Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt; =3D3DA0Brandenburg<br>
> >>=A0>>>InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp=
> >>;gt; =3D3DA0&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http:=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>//<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>bbiw.net</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://bbiw.=
> >>net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D3D&quot;_b=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a
> href=3D3D"<a hr=
> >>ef=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://bbiw.net"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a></a>&lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt=
> >>;/div&gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt=
> >>;font<br>
>
> >>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am=
> >>p;gt;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0
> =3D3DA0jon&lt;b=
> >>r&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l=
>
> >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&am=
> >>p;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>gt;&lt;br
> clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot=
> >>;&gt;&lt;span<br>
> >>=A0>>>class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;=
> >>font<br>
>
> >>=A0>>>color=3D3D3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&am=
> >>p;gt;-=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a
> href=3D3D3D&qu=
> >>ot;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>get=3D3D"_blank"><a
> href=3D"http://=
> >>www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s
> </a></a=
> >>>=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a
> hre=
> >>f=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org
> </a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://cience.or=
> >>g" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a></a>&q=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>uot;
> target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&=
> >>;gt;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>cience.org</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.conte=
> >>nt-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-science.or=
> >>g</a></a>&lt;/=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br&g=
> >>t;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&l=
>
> >>t;/span&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;=
> >>&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br<br>
> >>=A0>>>clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;--
> &l=
> >>t;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a<br>
> >>=A0>>>href=3D3D"http://=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>www.c"
> target=3D3D"_blank"><a =
> >>href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c
> </a></a>=3D3D<=
> >>br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a
> hre=
> >>f=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://ontent-based=
> >>-science.org</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://tent-based-science.org"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">tent-based-science.org</a></a>&quot;
> target=3D3D3D&am=
> >>p;quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>cienc" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.conte=
> >>nt-b" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a
> hre=
> >>f=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://e.org"
> ta=
> >>rget=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&l=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091=
> >>b8d--<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span
> class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><fon=
> >>t color=3D3D"#888888"><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><=
> >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><br>--
> <br&=
> >>gt;<a href=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a>"=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.cont"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ent-based-science.org"
> target=
> >>=3D"_blank">ent-based-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >><br>
> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >><br>
> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=
> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.cont=
> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>
> >>--20cf3077647304ffef04ca0fe5ee--
>
> cheers
>
> jon
>
>
--
http://www.content-based-science.org
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