[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Jon Crowcroft
Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 07:33:55 PDT 2012
In missive <CACQuieamtc5eUqPHhe8toFtOy5zJ9zRBwWFQCN-NCwr0BSxwyQ at mail.gmail.com>, Par
s Mutaf typed:
>>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem.
>>One balloon can cover a very large area.
no it cant - the phone signal wont reach it from far away (e.g. > 5k)
so you need lots of ballons and the ballons have to coordinate and users
move around and their batteries go flat faster co they have to boost the tx
signal and rx sensitivity to max
the area of some disasters (especially ones that wreck the infrastructure,
like earthquales, tsunamis, hurricanes etc) aren't just trainwrecks (like
this discussion) - they can be very very wide area...
and the ballons move around in th wind, so you have to do dynamic, er, ad
hoc routing between ballons
unless you have backhaul back to the cellular network (e.g. via satellite)
but that will take yet more power and introduce delays and be expensive and
so on
>>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions.
>>The point is that:
>>MANET Doesn't work.
you claim - i've seen working manets - earliest one was in Land Rovers
driving aroun the Malvern Hills at RSRE in 1986 - worked fine...
>>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution...
yes, you need a non network solution - you need things like
safe water, safe food, dry land,
and your wits.
>>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft
>><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>
>>> the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
>>> all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
>>> insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
>>> nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>>>
>>> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
>>> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
>>> the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>>
>>> the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
>>> provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
>>> input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
>>> where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
>>> help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
>>> optimse resoruce allocation.
>>>
>>>
>>> the balloons are visible here
>>> http://xkcd.com/1110/
>>> if you clock and drag far enough along...
>>>
>>>
>>> In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
>>> >>> hand
>>> >>>
>>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
>>> >>
>>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
>>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
>>> >>
>>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>> >>> target for the other side
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
>>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
>>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
>>> >>infrastructure
>>> >>network.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> your move, sunshine.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> In missive
>>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA
>>> Packet
>>> >>> radio
>>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
>>> >>> anything
>>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
>>> communications,
>>> >>> not the
>>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
>>> question?
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is
>>> used
>>> >>> for.
>>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the Internet"
>>> but I
>>> >>> am
>>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> Cheers,
>>> >>> >>>> Pars
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work
>>> (many
>>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>>> >>> relevant.
>>> >>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been, or
>>> has any
>>> >>> hope
>>> >>> >>>>> of
>>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>d/
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>--
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> cheers
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> jon
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> --
>>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--
>>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
>>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
>>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
>>> >>> >>quote">
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
>>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
>>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>> style=
>>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA
>>> Packet
>>> >>> rad=
>>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>> vehicular
>>> >>> networ=
>>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>> >>> target=
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
>>> >>> imagine and=
>>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
>>> intersection
>>> >>> of o=
>>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
>>> Mutaf"
>>> >>> <=
>>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
>>> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17
>>> PM, Jon
>>> >>> Cro=
>>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
>>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
>>> .8ex;border-left:1px
>>> >>> #cc=
>>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
>>> didn't
>>> >>> chang=
>>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we
>>> really
>>> >>> ask t=
>>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>> >>> themselves wh=
>>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>> >>> Internet"=
>>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
>>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
>>> 0pt
>>> >>> 0.8e=
>>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
>>> choose<br>
>>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
>>> >>> target=3D"_=
>>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:<br>
>>> >>> >><div><div><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
>>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
>>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,
>>> >>> Par<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the
>>> relevant
>>> >>> prior=
>>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>> >>> Crowcroft), it=
>>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
>>> or has
>>> >>> any=
>>> >>> >> hope of<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
>>> bbiw.net
>>> >>> </a><b=
>>> >>> >>r>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
>>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
>>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> </a><br><=
>>> >>> >>br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> http://www.c=
>>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
>>> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>>
>>> >>> cheers
>>> >>>
>>> >>> jon
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>--
>>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>
>>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
>>> Crowcroft =
>>> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>> target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>> wrote:<br><blockquote=
>>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> soli=
>>> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>> >>hand<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the users'
>>> task=
>>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
>>> them.<br><br>=
>>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>> 0.8e=
>>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated users in
>>> a di=
>>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of the
>>> netw=
>>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
>>> probability to=
>>> >> work.<br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
>>> 0pt =
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I personally do
>>> not =
>>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they do
>>> obscur=
>>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
>>> expensive=
>>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
>>> 0pt =
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >><br>
>>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
>>> dangerous*.=
>>> >> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote
>>> class=
>>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px
>>> solid rg=
>>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
>>> class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
>>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
>>> rgb(204,204,204);padd=
>>> >>ing-left:1ex">
>>> >>In missive
>>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
>>> >>il.<br>
>>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
>>> >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
>>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>>> ">jon.crowcroft@=
>>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
>>> since AR=
>>> >>PA Packet radio<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>> veh=
>>> >>icular<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
>>> http://thing=
>>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
>>> communi=
>>> >>cations, not the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a
>>> href=3D=
>>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> <<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>>> ">Jon.Crowc=
>>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you"
>>> pos=
>>> >>er syndrome<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable
>>> solution,<=
>>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask
>>> thi=
>>> >>s question?<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves
>>> wha=
>>> >>t it is used for.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want
>>> for th=
>>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
>>> argume=
>>> >>nt(s))<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem
>>> it =
>>> >>solves<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever
>>> vers=
>>> >>ion you choose<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> 50589DCC.2030808 at d=
>>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> wrot=
>>> >>e:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
>>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
>>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage
>>> you to=
>>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was
>>> give=
>>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether this
>>> thr=
>>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not
>>> relevant=
>>> >>...<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
>>> target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>> target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>> target=3D"_blan=
>>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
>>> See:<br><br><a hr=
>>> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://w=
>>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
>>> href=3D=
>>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://www.ietf.org/ma=
>>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
>>>
>>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
>>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>> dir=3D3=
>>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
>>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk
>>> </a><=
>>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
>>> class=3D3D"=
>>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> solid;padding-=
>>> >>left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
>>> sinc=
>>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
>>> vehic=
>>> >>ular networ=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
>>> href=3D3D=
>>> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it
>>> </a>&quo=
>>> >>t; target=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>> target=3D=
>>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything we can
>>> imag=
>>> >>ine and=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
>>> inters=
>>> >>ection of o=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012
>>> 17:4=
>>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
>>> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
>>> type=3D3D"attribution&q=
>>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>> #ccc s=
>>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br><div
>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
>>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a
>>> href=3D=
>>> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>>> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
>>> Jon.Crowcroft=
>>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>>> </a></a>&gt;</span>=
>>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>> style=3D3D"margin:=
>>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot;
>>> poser sy=
>>> >>ndrome<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable
>>> solution,<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>problem (or the
>>> assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
>>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the
>>> Intern=
>>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example,
>>> they di=
>>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do we
>>> want f=
>>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
>>> <br><br>=
>>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
>>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
>>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
>>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
>>> argument(s))<br&=
>>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
>>> solves<br&=
>>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever version
>>> you c=
>>> >>hoose<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>> href=3D"mailto=
>>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>"
>>> tar=
>>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
>>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
>>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
>>> typed:<=
>>> >>;br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> wrote:&=
>>> >>lt;br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
>>> href=3D3D=
>>> >>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM
>>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
>>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
>>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
>>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
>>> target=3D3D"=
>>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
>>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
>>> >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
>>> </a>&=
>>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt;
>>> I e=
>>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1
>>> point=
>>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
>>> relevant.<br><=
>>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether this
>>> thread=
>>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
>>> relevant...=
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
>>> InternetWorking<br>=
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
>>> href=3D"http:=
>>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
>>> target=3D3D"_b=
>>> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> </a><=
>>> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>r><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><span><font
>>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
>>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
>>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>>b"><font
>>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
>>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
>>> tar=
>>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org
>>> </a>&q=
>>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
>>> http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> </a></=
>>> >>a><br><=3D<br>
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>br><br>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
>>> clear=3D3D"=
>>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
>>> href=3D"http://=
>>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
>>> target=3D"_blank">on=
>>> >>tent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a
>>> href=
>>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://www.content-b=
>>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org
>>> </a></a>&l=
>>> >>t;br><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
>>> href=
>>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>>> http://www.cont=
>>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> jon
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>
>>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6
>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>
>>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem. <br>
>><br>
>>One balloon can cover a very large area. <br>
>><br>
>>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions. <br>
>><br>
>>The point is that: <br>
>><br>
>>MANET Doesn't work. <br>
>><br>
>>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another solution..=
>>.<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:0=
>>4 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at c=
>>l.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wr=
>>ote:<br>
>><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
>>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">the resources to put enough ballons (as many=
>> as cell towers) in<br>
>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br>
>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,<br>
>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
>><br>
>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters<br>
>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for<br>
>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
>><br>
>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also<br>
>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness<br>
>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find<br>
>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide<br>
>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to<br>
>>optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>>the balloons are visible here<br>
>><a href=3D"http://xkcd.com/1110/" target=3D"_blank">http://xkcd.com/1110/</=
>>a><br>
>>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
>><div class=3D"im"><br>
>><br>
>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.g=
>>mail.<br>
>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>><br>
>></div>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have be=
>>en studied in<br>
>>=A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they=
>> have to<br>
>>=A0>>> hand<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,=
>> japan,<br>
>>=A0>>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you d=
>>esribed<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario<br>
>></div>=A0>>because they are too far away from the rest of the network=
>>.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to w=
>>ork.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is =
>>a great<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> target for the other side<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really rese=
>>arch,<br>
>></div>=A0>>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. T=
>>hey can just<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones. They =
>>do not care.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon wo=
>>uld be a big<br>
>>=A0>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under brid=
>>ges.<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>>infrastructure<br>
>>=A0>>network.<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> your move, sunshine.<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+J=
>>zTx6F5g at mail.gmail.<br>
>>=A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>></div><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enou=
>>gh Jon. See:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
>>e/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
>>il-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<=
>>br>
>></div><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:jo=
>>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use case=
>>s exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>=A0>>> radio<br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster =
>>recovery networks, vehicular<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some actually =
>>in use ad deployed.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a href=
>>=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for<=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> anything<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the unio=
>>n of all communications,<br>
>>=A0>>> not the<br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one notion with one t=
>>echnology.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"=
>>; <<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>> =
>>wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cr=
>>owcroft <<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.=
>>ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about =
>>as the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even f=
>>or you" poser syndrome<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a wor=
>>kable solution,<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of the=
>> problem) changes the<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet?=
>> Did we really ask this question?<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not as=
>>k themselves what it is used<br>
>>=A0>>> for.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What d=
>>o we want for the Internet" =A0but I<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> am<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (an=
>>d the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change=
>> the problem it solves<br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way it =
>>still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50=
>>589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Cr=
>>ocker typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jo=
>>n Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-x=
>>xaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=
>>C2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
>>=A0>>> Par<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I =
>>encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 =
>>pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
>>=A0>>> relevant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relev=
>>ant.<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of =
>>whether this thread has been, or has any<br>
>>=A0>>> hope<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> of<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it =
>>was not relevant...<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg Internet=
>>Working<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bb=
>>iw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> --<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-sci=
>>ence.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>&l=
>>t;br><a href=3D3D"<br>
>>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D" target=3D"_blank">http:=
>>//www.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quo=
>>t;><br>
>>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_bla=
>>nk">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><=
>>;br><br><br><br><div<br>
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>quote"><br>
>></div></div>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jo=
>>n Crowcroft <span<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
>>hr=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcr=
>>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">=
>>cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote=
>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
>>=A0>>> style=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1=
>>px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use =
>>cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
>>=A0>>> rad=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery=
>> networks, vehicular<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> networ=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>=
>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one=
>> <a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://=
>>thing.it</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> target=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thi=
>>ng.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anyt=
>>hing we can<br>
>>=A0>>> imagine and=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union of all communic=
>>ations, not the intersection<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> of o=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote"&=
>>gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> &lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:p=
>>ars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D3D&qu=
>>ot;attribution"><blockquote<br>
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
>>-left:1px #ccc<br>
>>=A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div class=3D3D&quo=
>>t;gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> Cro=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&=
>>lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
>>=A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft=
>>@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mail=
>>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&=
>>;gt;</span><br>
>>=A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" s=
>>tyle=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> #cc=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&am=
>>p;quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable s=
>>olution,<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem) cha=
>>nges the<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the assumptions)<br></block=
>>quote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t<br>
>>=A0>>> chang=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do =
>>we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
>>=A0>>> ask t=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for =
>>example, they did not ask<br>
>>=A0>>> themselves wh=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They cannot=
>> explain. <br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a new thread &=
>>quot;What do we want for the<br>
>>=A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <=
>>;br><br>Cheers,<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote class=3D3D"=
>>;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
>>=A0>>> 0.8e=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding=
>>-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E=
>>2E argument(s))<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem =
>>it solves<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still doesn&#3=
>>9;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<=
>>a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.n=
>>et</a>"<br>
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.203080=
>>8 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave C=
>>rocker typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2=
>>012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt=
>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
>>=A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BV=
>>q2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"<=
>>br>
>>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1t=
>>FcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mai=
>>l.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
>>=A0>>> Par<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<=
>>br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br=
>>>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br>
>>=A0>>> prior=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&=
>>;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
>>=A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br=
>>>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whe=
>>ther this thread has been, or has<br>
>>=A0>>> any=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was=
>> not relevant...<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--&l=
>>t;br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br>=
>>;<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetW=
>>orking<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"=
>><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" tar=
>>get=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank"=
>>>bbiw.net</a><br>
>>
>>=A0>>> </a><b=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>r><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br=
>>>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><span><font color=3D3D"#888888&quo=
>>t;><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><=
>>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><span<br>
>>=A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>b"><font color=3D3D"#888888"=
>>;><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<br>
>>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">ht=
>>tp://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">=
>>cience.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www=
>>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-scie=
>>nce.org</a><br>
>>
>>=A0>>> </a><br><=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><=
>>;/div><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>></blockquote></div><br><br =
>>clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<b=
>>r>
>>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=
>>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org" targ=
>>et=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank&qu=
>>ot;><br>
>>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blan=
>>k">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org=
>></a></a><br><br><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>--<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blan=
>>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
>>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>></div></div>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On Wed,=
>> Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>><span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;&l=
>>t;a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon=
>>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.ca=
>>m.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span> wrot=
>>e:<br><blockquote=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:=
>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=3D<br>
>>=A0>>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied =
>>in<br><br>
>>=A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with resources they ha=
>>ve to<br><br>
>>=A0>>hand<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japa=
>>n,<br><br>
>>=A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desrib=
>>ed<br><br>
>>=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the =
>>balloons is not the users&#39; task=3D<br>
>>=A0>> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross wil=
>>l prepare them.<br><br>=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D&quo=
>>t;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>></div>=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br><br&g=
>>t;MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=3D<br>
>>=A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the=
>> rest of the netw=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a =
>>very low probability to=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>> work.<br><br>
>>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_=
>>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
>>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu=
>>ot;><br>
>></div>=A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is=
>> a great<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>target for the other side<br></blockq=
>>uote><div><br><br>I personally do not =3D<br>
>>=A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>becau=
>>se they do obscur=3D<br>
>>=A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use t=
>>he most expensive=3D<br>
>>=A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><br>
>>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_=
>>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
>>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu=
>>ot;><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would b=
>>e a big<br><br>
>>=A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.&=
>>lt;br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br=
>>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=3D<br>
>>=A0>> Just use the infrastructure <br>network.<br><br&=
>>gt;=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0p=
>>t 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>>=A0>><br></blockquote><div></div><div>&=
>>lt;/div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px sol=
>>id rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ing-left:1ex"><br>
>>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+Jz=
>>Tx6F5g at mail.gma=3D<br>
>>=A0>>il.<br><br>
>>=A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br=
>>>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D3DISO-8=
>>859-1<br><br>
>></div>=A0>><div><div class=3D3D"h5">=3DA0&g=
>>t;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a h=
>>ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D" target=3D"=
>>_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>g12602.html" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"ht=
>>tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
>>.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a><br>
>>=A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowc=
>>roft<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a href=3D3D&q=
>>uot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.c=
>>am.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</=
>>a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure. Many=
>> use cases exist since AR=3D<br>
>>=A0>>PA Packet radio<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks, disast=
>>er recovery networks, veh=3D<br>
>>=A0>>icular<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in use ad=
>> deployed.<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet isn=
>>&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing" targe=
>>t=3D"_blank">http://thing</a>=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http=
>>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, fo=
>>r anything<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and realize...it is=
>> the union of all communi=3D<br>
>>=A0>>cations, not the<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion with on=
>>e technology.<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep 2012 1=
>>7:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf@=
>>gmail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at g=
>>mail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:=
>>17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a hr=
>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
>>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:roft at cl.cam.ac.uk">roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>=
>></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what we us=
>>ed to talk about as the<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my probl=
>>em is too hard even for you&quot; pos=3D<br>
>>=A0>>er syndrome<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically, wheneve=
>>r you offer a workable solution,<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of the =
>>problem) changes the<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I didn&#39;t =
>>change the problem:<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for the In=
>>ternet? Did we really ask thi=3D<br>
>>=A0>>s question?<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for example, th=
>>ey did not ask themselves wha=3D<br>
>>=A0>>t it is used for.<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot explain.<br=
>>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new thread=
>> &quot;What do we want for th=3D<br>
>>=A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I am<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should do th=
>>is.<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the nice th=
>>ings about IP (and the E2E argume=3D<br>
>>=A0>>nt(s))<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is real=
>>ly hard to change the problem it =3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>solves<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it still =
>>doesn&#39;t solve, whichever vers=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ion you choose<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok, maybe n=
>>ot IPv5:)<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt=
>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d">50589DCC=
>>.2030808 at d</a>=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>><a href=3D"http://crocker.net" target=3D"_blank">crocker.n=
>>et</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2=
>>030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker typed:<br><br=
>>>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
>>lt;br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>e:<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt=
>>;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>><a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i=
>>DwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">2BV2X=
>>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i=
>>DwO+V2X=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">V1tFcP5PgT+V=
>>q2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt=
>>;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to=3D<br>
>>=A0>> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were give=
>>n)<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was give=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; of<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=3D<br>
>>=A0>>...<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;d/<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt;--<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt;&=
>>gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0&gt=
>>;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"=
>> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" tar=
>>get=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0cheers<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0 =3DA0jon<=
>>br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D3D"<a hr=
>>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.co=
>>ntent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://w=
>>ww.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-sc=
>>ience.org</a></a><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a h=
>>ref=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c=
>>ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blan=3D<br>
>>=A0>>k"><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" targ=
>>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></a><br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b=
>>204ca091b8d<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html; charset=3D3DISO-88=
>>59-1<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable=
>><br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon. See:&lt=
>>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a hre=
>>f=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D=
>></a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://w" target=3D"=
>>_blank">http://w</a>=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">ww.ietf.o=
>>rg/=3D3D</a></a><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.htm=
>>l&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D" target=3D"_=
>>blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D</a>" target=3D3D"_blank=
>>"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">http://ww=
>>w.ietf.org/ma=3D</a><br>
>>
>>=A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;=
>>/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&am=
>>p;quot;gmail_=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon=
>> Crowcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&a=
>>mp;lt;a hr=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D&q=
>>uot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.c=
>>am.ac.uk</a>=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>"><a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jo=
>>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_bl=
>>ank&quot;&gt;jon=3D<br>
>>=A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://cam=
>>.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D3D"_blan=
>>k"><a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><=
>>/a>&lt=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; wrote:&lt;br&am=
>>p;gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
>>eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-=3D<br>
>>=A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET example, su=
>>re. Many use cases exist sinc=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks, disast=
>>er recovery networks, vehic=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad deployed.&=
>>lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet isn&amp;#=
>>39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http=
>>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>" target=3D3D"_=
>>blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.i=
>>t</a></a>&quo=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>t; target=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;&l=
>>t;a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thi=
>>ng.it</a>" target=3D3D=3D<br>
>>=A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_bla=
>>nk">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for anythin=
>>g we can imag=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ine and=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all com=
>>munications, not the inters=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one technology.&lt;/p&am=
>>p;gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quo=
>>te&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=3D<br>
>>=A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot; &amp;lt=3D3D<br=
>>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<=
>>a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.">pars.mutaf at gma=
>>il.</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>com"><a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf@=
>>gmail.com</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&a=
>>mp;gt;pars.m=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt; wrote:&a=
>>mp;lt;br type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D<br>
>>=A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=
>>=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;mar=
>>gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt=
>>;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3D&qu=
>>ot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto=
>>:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</=
>>a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.ac.uk</=
>>a></a>&quot; =3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&=
>>;gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft">Jon.Crowcr=
>>oft</a>=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>@<a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.=
>>ac.uk</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcr=
>>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&a=
>>mp;gt=3D<br>
>>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>; wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<=
>>;br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&am=
>>p;quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D<br>
>>=A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&am=
>>p;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as the&a=
>>mp;lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard even f=
>>or you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D<br>
>>=A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a worka=
>>ble solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes the&=
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the assumptions)&lt;br&=
>>gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I didn&amp;#3=
>>9;t chang=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the problem:&lt;br&gt;&=
>>lt;br&gt;What do we want for the Intern=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his question?&lt;br&gt;&l=
>>t;br&gt;Take MANET for example, they di=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot explai=
>>n. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new threa=
>>d &amp;quot;What do we want f=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>or the Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br><b=
>>r>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure if I should=
>> do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>;Cheers, &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&=
>>gt;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;block=
>>quote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D<br>
>>=A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D3D<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);pa=
>>dding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>gt;<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and the E2=
>>E argument(s))&lt;br&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the pro=
>>blem it solves&lt;br&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t solve=
>>, whichever version you c=3D<br>
>>=A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)&lt;br&g=
>>t;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3=
>>D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto=3D<br>
>>=A0>>:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.20308=
>>08 at dcrocker.net</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.ne=
>>t">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot; tar=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"=
>>;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at d=
>>crocker.net</a>">=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.=
>>2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave Croc=
>>ker typed:&lt=3D<br>
>>=A0>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&=
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
>>mp;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On 9/18/2012=
>> 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>> In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto:<=
>>a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>=
>>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D<br>
>>=A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
>>to:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP=
>>5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>>om"><a href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@=
>>mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&=
>>amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
>>=A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mail=
>>to:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw=
>>O%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ail.gmail.com=
>></a>"><a href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2=
>>A at mail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</=
>>a></a>&=3D<br>
>>
>></div>=A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Par&lt;br&gt;<br>=
>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>> s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D3D&l=
>>t;br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were given)&=
>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D3D<br=
>>><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not relevant.&lt;br&gt;&l=
>>t;br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
>> it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D<br>
>>=A0>>br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
>>mp;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
>>mp;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the broad=
>>er sense of whether this thread=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope of&lt;br&gt;<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being, const=
>>ructive, it was not relevant...=3D<br>
>>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
>>mp;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br=
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
>>mp;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br=
>>&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Dave=
>> Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0Bran=
>>denburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D<br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt; =3D3DA0&=
>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http:=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>//<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank=
>>">bbiw.net</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbi=
>>w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot; target=3D3=
>>D3D&quot;_b=3D<br>
>>
>></div>=A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http=
>>://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D3D"_=
>>blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a>&l=
>>t;/a>&lt=3D<br>
>>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
>></div><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&=
>>lt;br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&=
>>gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D=
>>3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D<br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 =3D3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br&=
>>gt;<br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&=
>>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=3D<br>
>>=A0>>gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt=
>>;span class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D<br>
>>=A0>>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=3D3D3=
>>D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&=
>>quot;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=3D"=
>>_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=3D<br>
>></div>=A0>>get=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.conten=
>>t-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a></a>=3D3D&=
>>lt;br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://cien=
>>ce.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org</a>" target=3D3D"_bla=
>>nk"><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&=
>>lt;/a>&q=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a href=
>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://=
>>www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
>>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
>>a>&lt;/=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&=
>>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&=
>>;gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D<br>
>>=A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-- &lt;br&gt;&=
>>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http://=3D<br>
>><div class=3D"im">=A0>>www.c" target=3D3D"_blank"><=
>>a href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a></a>=3D3D&l=
>>t;br><br>
>></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http:=
>>//ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://ontent-based-science.o=
>>rg</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D<br>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://tent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">tent=
>>-based-science.org</a></a>&quot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&am=
>>p;quot;&gt;<a href=3D<br>
>>=A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D=
>>"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>" target=3D3D"_blank&=
>>quot;><a href=3D"http://www.content-b" target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
>>ent-b</a>=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://e.or=
>>g" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"&g=
>>t;<a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&lt;/a&=
>>amp;gt;&l=3D<br>
>>
>><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&a=
>>mp;gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><=
>>br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>=A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D3D&quo=
>>t;#888888"><br><br>
>>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>=A0>><br><br>
>>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
>>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D=
>><br>
>>=A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" targ=
>>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D&qu=
>>ot;_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.cont" target=3D"_blank">http://www=
>>.cont</a>=3D<br>
>>
>>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">ent-b=
>>ased-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>>=A0>><br>
>>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
>><br>
>>=A0cheers<br>
>><br>
>>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>><br>
>></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"=
>>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-=
>>based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>
>>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6--
cheers
jon
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