[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf
pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 08:38:16 PDT 2012
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:33 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> In missive <
> CACQuieamtc5eUqPHhe8toFtOy5zJ9zRBwWFQCN-NCwr0BSxwyQ at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> s Mutaf typed:
>
> >>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem.
> >>One balloon can cover a very large area.
>
> no it cant - the phone signal wont reach it from far away (e.g. > 5k)
> so you need lots of ballons and the ballons have to coordinate and users
> move around and their batteries go flat faster co they have to boost the tx
> signal and rx sensitivity to max
>
Lets try this before saying that it doesn't work.
MANET is not a solution. Because it doesn't work for distant users,
partitioned
networks is not a small detail. It is fatal.
>
> the area of some disasters (especially ones that wreck the infrastructure,
> like earthquales, tsunamis, hurricanes etc) aren't just trainwrecks (like
> this discussion) - they can be very very wide area...
>
> and the ballons move around in th wind, so you have to do dynamic, er, ad
> hoc routing between ballons
>
You are anticipating too much. Just deploy one and see how it works.
>
> unless you have backhaul back to the cellular network (e.g. via satellite)
> but that will take yet more power and introduce delays and be expensive and
> so on
>
>
Of course, (this was explained in the provided link), the balloon is a
relay to the
satellite. We use a normal phone. The result will that of a satellite phone.
> >>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions.
>
> >>The point is that:
> >>MANET Doesn't work.
>
> you claim - i've seen working manets - earliest one was in Land Rovers
> driving aroun the Malvern Hills at RSRE in 1986 - worked fine...
>
> >>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another
> solution...
>
> yes, you need a non network solution - you need things like
> safe water, safe food, dry land,
> and your wits.
>
No my leg is broken I am bleeding. I need to call someone.
>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 5:04 PM, Jon Crowcroft
> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
> >>> all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
> >>> insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
> >>> nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
> >>>
> >>> on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
> >>> will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
> >>> the 3 days before more resources arrive.
> >>>
> >>> the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
> >>> provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
> >>> input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
> >>> where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
> >>> help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
> >>> optimse resoruce allocation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> the balloons are visible here
> >>> http://xkcd.com/1110/
> >>> if you clock and drag far enough along...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> In missive
> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>>
> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied
> in
> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
> >>> >>> hand
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> japan,
> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> desribed
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to
> work.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
> great
> >>> >>> target for the other side
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really
> research,
> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can
> just
> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
> >>> >>infrastructure
> >>> >>network.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> your move, sunshine.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> In missive
> >>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
> ARPA
> >>> Packet
> >>> >>> radio
> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehicular
> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by
> definition, for
> >>> >>> anything
> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> >>> communications,
> >>> >>> not the
> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
> >>> question?
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what
> it is
> >>> used
> >>> >>> for.
> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
> Internet"
> >>> but I
> >>> >>> am
> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>> >>>> Pars
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
> choose
> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
> >>> typed:
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
> >>> >>> Par
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work
> >>> (many
> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it
> is not
> >>> >>> relevant.
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
> or
> >>> has any
> >>> >>> hope
> >>> >>> >>>>> of
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> jon
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> --
> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
> >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
> >>> >>> >>quote">
> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> >>> class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> >>> style=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
> ARPA
> >>> Packet
> >>> >>> rad=
> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> >>> vehicular
> >>> >>> networ=
> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
> http://thing.it"
> >>> >>> target=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we
> can
> >>> >>> imagine and=
> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> >>> intersection
> >>> >>> of o=
> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
> >>> Mutaf"
> >>> >>> <=
> >>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
> >>> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
> 7:17
> >>> PM, Jon
> >>> >>> Cro=
> >>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>> .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> >>> #cc=
> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser
> syndrome<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
> >>> didn't
> >>> >>> chang=
> >>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we
> >>> really
> >>> >>> ask t=
> >>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> >>> >>> themselves wh=
> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
> >>> >>> Internet"=
> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
> >>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
> >>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> >>> 0pt
> >>> >>> 0.8e=
> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
> >>> choose<br>
> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_=
> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
> >>> typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >><div><div><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>>,
> >>> >>> Par<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the
> >>> relevant
> >>> >>> prior=
> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it=
> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has
> been,
> >>> or has
> >>> >>> any=
> >>> >>> >> hope of<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> bbiw.net
> >>> >>> </a><b=
> >>> >>> >>r>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
> >>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> </a><br><=
> >>> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D"
> >>> >>> http://www.c=
> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
> >>> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> cheers
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> jon
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--
> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>
> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
> >>> Crowcroft =
> >>> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> "
> >>> target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>> wrote:<br><blockquote=
> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> #ccc
> >>> soli=
> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied
> in<br>
> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have
> to<br>
> >>> >>hand<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> japan,<br>
> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> desribed<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the
> users'
> >>> task=
> >>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
> >>> them.<br><br>=
> >>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt
> 0pt
> >>> 0.8e=
> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated
> users in
> >>> a di=
> >>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest of
> the
> >>> netw=
> >>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
> >>> probability to=
> >>> >> work.<br>
> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt
> 0pt
> >>> 0pt =
> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
> great<br>
> >>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I
> personally do
> >>> not =
> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they
> do
> >>> obscur=
> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
> >>> expensive=
> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt
> 0pt
> >>> 0pt =
> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a
> big<br>
> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
> >>> dangerous*.=
> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure
> <br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote
> >>> class=
> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> solid rg=
> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
> >>> class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> >>> rgb(204,204,204);padd=
> >>> >>ing-left:1ex">
> >>> >>In missive
> >>> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
> >>> >>il.<br>
> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
> >>> >>g12602.html" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> >>> ">jon.crowcroft@=
> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist
> >>> since AR=
> >>> >>PA Packet radio<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> networks,
> >>> veh=
> >>> >>icular<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
> >>> http://thing=
> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for
> anything<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> >>> communi=
> >>> >>cations, not the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <<a
> >>> href=3D=
> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>>
> wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> <<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> >>> ">Jon.Crowc=
> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as
> the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for
> you"
> >>> pos=
> >>> >>er syndrome<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable
> >>> solution,<=
> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we
> really ask
> >>> thi=
> >>> >>s question?<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> themselves
> >>> wha=
> >>> >>t it is used for.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we
> want
> >>> for th=
> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the
> E2E
> >>> argume=
> >>> >>nt(s))<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the
> problem
> >>> it =
> >>> >>solves<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve,
> whichever
> >>> vers=
> >>> >>ion you choose<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at d=
> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
> >>> typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> Crowcroft
> >>> wrot=
> >>> >>e:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I
> encourage
> >>> you to=
> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer
> was
> >>> give=
> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of whether
> this
> >>> thr=
> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was not
> >>> relevant=
> >>> >>...<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg
> InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> >>> target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-science.org"
> >>> target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> >>> target=3D"_blan=
> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
> >>> See:<br><br><a hr=
> >>> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
> target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://w=
> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
> >>> href=3D=
> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/ma=
> >>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
> >>> dir=3D3=
> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
> >>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
> cam.ac.uk
> >>> </a><=
> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> >>> class=3D3D"=
> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> solid;padding-=
> >>> >>left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
> exist
> >>> sinc=
> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> networks,
> >>> vehic=
> >>> >>ular networ=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
> >>> href=3D3D=
> >>> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">
> http://thing.it
> >>> </a>&quo=
> >>> >>t; target=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> >>> target=3D=
> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything
> we can
> >>> imag=
> >>> >>ine and=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not
> the
> >>> inters=
> >>> >>ection of o=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep
> 2012
> >>> 17:4=
> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> pars.mutaf at gmail.=
> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
> >>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
> >>> type=3D3D"attribution&q=
> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> #ccc s=
> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div
> >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a
> >>> href=3D=
> >>> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> >>> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> Jon.Crowcroft=
> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> >>> </a></a>&gt;</span>=
> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> style=3D3D"margin:=
> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for you&quot;
> >>> poser sy=
> >>> >>ndrome<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable
> >>> solution,<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the
> >>> assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for
> the
> >>> Intern=
> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example,
> >>> they di=
> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do
> we
> >>> want f=
> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> >>> <br><br>=
> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
> >>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> >>> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> >>> argument(s))<br&=
> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> >>> solves<br&=
> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever
> version
> >>> you c=
> >>> >>hoose<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>> href=3D"mailto=
> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> </a>"
> >>> tar=
> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> >>> typed:<=
> >>> >>;br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> wrote:&=
> >>> >>lt;br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
> >>> href=3D3D=
> >>> >>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM
> >>> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
> >>> target=3D3D"=
> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
> >>> >>ail.gmail.com">
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
> >>> </a>&=
> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf
> typed:<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> &gt;&gt;&gt;
> >>> I e=
> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> &gt;&gt;Only 1
> >>> point=
> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
> >>> relevant.<br><=
> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether
> this
> >>> thread=
> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
> >>> relevant...=
> >>> >><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
> >>> InternetWorking<br>=
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
> >>> href=3D"http:=
> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
> >>> target=3D3D"_b=
> >>> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
> bbiw.net
> >>> </a><=
> >>> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>r><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><span><font
> >>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
> >>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font
> >>> color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s"
> >>> tar=
> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">
> cience.org
> >>> </a>&q=
> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> </a></=
> >>> >>a><br><=3D<br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>br><br>
> >>>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
> >>> clear=3D3D"=
> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
> >>> href=3D"http://=
> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
> >>> target=3D"_blank">on=
> >>> >>tent-based-science.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> >>> href=
> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.content-b=
> >>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org
> >>> </a></a>&l=
> >>> >>t;br><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--
> <br><a
> >>> href=
> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.cont=
> >>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>> jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>
> >>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6
> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>
> >>So this is not a research problem, it is an education problem. <br>
> >><br>
> >>One balloon can cover a very large area. <br>
> >><br>
> >>But that's not the point. There are also other solutions. <br>
> >><br>
> >>The point is that: <br>
> >><br>
> >>MANET Doesn't work. <br>
> >><br>
> >>If I am too far away from the network, I am dead. I need another
> solution..=
> >>.<br><br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at
> 5:0=
> >>4 PM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at c=
> >>l.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> wr=
> >>ote:<br>
> >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1p=
> >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">the resources to put enough ballons (as
> many=
> >> as cell towers) in<br>
> >>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply<br>
> >>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,<br>
> >>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.<br>
> >><br>
> >>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters<br>
> >>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for<br>
> >>the 3 days before more resources arrive.<br>
> >><br>
> >>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also<br>
> >>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness<br>
> >>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find<br>
> >>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide<br>
> >>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to<br>
> >>optimse resoruce allocation.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>the balloons are visible here<br>
> >><a href=3D"http://xkcd.com/1110/" target=3D"_blank">
> http://xkcd.com/1110/</=
> >>a><br>
> >>if you clock and drag far enough along...<br>
> >><div class=3D"im"><br>
> >><br>
> >>In missive
> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=3D1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.g=
> >>mail.<br>
> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >><br>
> >></div>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch
> have be=
> >>en studied in<br>
> >>=A0>>> great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources
> they=
> >> have to<br>
> >>=A0>>> hand<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of
> indonesia,=
> >> japan,<br>
> >>=A0>>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as
> you d=
> >>esribed<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of
> course.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster
> scenario<br>
> >></div>=A0>>because they are too far away from the rest of the
> network=
> >>.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability
> to w=
> >>ork.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea
> is =
> >>a great<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> target for the other side<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really
> rese=
> >>arch,<br>
> >></div>=A0>>because they do obscure things that we do not even
> know. T=
> >>hey can just<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>use the most expensive satellite phones.
> They =
> >>do not care.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant
> ballon wo=
> >>uld be a big<br>
> >>=A0>>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under
> brid=
> >>ges.<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use
> the<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>infrastructure<br>
> >>=A0>>network.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> your move, sunshine.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> In missive
> <CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+J=
> >>zTx6F5g at mail.gmail.<br>
> >>=A0>>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >></div><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question
> enou=
> >>gh Jon. See:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archiv=
> >>e/web/manet/current/msg12602.html" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/ma=
> >>il-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon
> Crowcroft<=
> >>br>
> >></div><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>><<a
> href=3D"mailto:jo=
> >>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use
> case=
> >>s exist since ARPA Packet<br>
> >>=A0>>> radio<br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>> days. Battlefield networks,
> disaster =
> >>recovery networks, vehicular<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>> networks...some
> actually =
> >>in use ad deployed.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a
> href=
> >>=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition,
> for<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> anything<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the
> unio=
> >>n of all communications,<br>
> >>=A0>>> not the<br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>> intersection of one notion with
> one t=
> >>echnology.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
> Mutaf"=
> >>; <<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>>
> =
> >>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM,
> Jon Cr=
> >>owcroft <<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.=
> >>ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk
> about =
> >>as the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard
> even f=
> >>or you" poser syndrome<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a
> wor=
> >>kable solution,<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>>>> the poser (of
> the=
> >> problem) changes the<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> No I didn't change the
> problem:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>>> What do we want for the
> Internet?=
> >> Did we really ask this question?<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did
> not as=
> >>k themselves what it is used<br>
> >>=A0>>> for.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> I would start a new thread
> "What d=
> >>o we want for the Internet" =A0but I<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> am<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> Pars<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP
> (an=
> >>d the E2E argument(s))<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to
> change=
> >> the problem it solves<br>
> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>>> =A0>>>>> in a way
> it =
> >>still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> In missive <<a
> href=3D"mailto:50=
> >>589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>,
> Dave Cr=
> >>ocker typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35
> AM, Jo=
> >>n Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive
> <<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-x=
> >>xaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxae=
> >>C2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,<br>
> >>=A0>>> Par<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf
> typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0
> >>> I =
> >>encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0
> >>Only 1 =
> >>pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not<br>
> >>=A0>>> relevant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly
> relev=
> >>ant.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense
> of =
> >>whether this thread has been, or has any<br>
> >>=A0>>> hope<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> of<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive,
> it =
> >>was not relevant...<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg
> Internet=
> >>Working<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"
> http://bb=
> >>iw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> --<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>> <a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-sci=
> >>ence.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-science.org"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
> See:<br>&l=
> >>t;br><a href=3D3D"<br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
> target=3D"_blank">http:=
> >>//www.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&quo=
> >>t;><br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D"
> target=3D"_bla=
> >>nk">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><=
> >>;br><br><br><br><div<br>
> >>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>quote"><br>
> >></div></div>=A0>>> =A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17
> AM, Jo=
> >>n Crowcroft <span<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>>
> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
> >>hr=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> jon.crowcr=
> >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl
> =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span>
> wrote:<br><blockquote=
> >> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"<br>
> >>=A0>>> style=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1=
> >>px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many
> use =
> >>cases exist since ARPA Packet<br>
> >>=A0>>> rad=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster
> recovery=
> >> networks, vehicular<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> networ=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ks...some actually in use ad
> deployed.</p>=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just
> one=
> >> <a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> target=3D"_blank">http://=
> >>thing.it</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://thi=
> >>ng.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for
> anyt=
> >>hing we can<br>
> >>=A0>>> imagine and=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>> realize...it is the union of all
> communic=
> >>ations, not the intersection<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> of o=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>><div
> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"&=
> >>gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot;<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> &lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> href=3D"mailto:p=
> >>ars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail
> =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
> type=3D3D&qu=
> >>ot;attribution"><blockquote<br>
> >>=A0>>> class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border=
> >>-left:1px #ccc<br>
> >>=A0>>> solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br><div
> class=3D3D&quo=
> >>t;gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> Cro=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>wcroft <span
> dir=3D3D"ltr">&=
> >>lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcroft=
> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> href=3D"mail=
> >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&=
> >>;gt;</span><br>
> >>=A0>>> wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>kquote
> class=3D3D"gmail_quote" s=
> >>tyle=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> #cc=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>this is what we used to talk about as
> the<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for
> you&am=
> >>p;quot; poser syndrome<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>basically, whenever you offer a
> workable s=
> >>olution,<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>the poser (of the problem)
> cha=
> >>nges the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>problem (or the
> assumptions)<br></block=
> >>quote><div><br>No I didn&#39;t<br>
> >>=A0>>> chang=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What
> do =
> >>we want for the Internet? Did we really<br>
> >>=A0>>> ask t=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET
> for =
> >>example, they did not ask<br>
> >>=A0>>> themselves wh=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>at it is used for. They
> cannot=
> >> explain. <br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>><br>I would start a new thread
> &=
> >>quot;What do we want for the<br>
> >>=A0>>> Internet&quot;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> <=
> >>;br><br>Cheers,<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>>
> <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br></div><blockquote
> class=3D3D"=
> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt<br>
> >>=A0>>> 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding=
> >>-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and
> the E=
> >>2E argument(s))<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>is that it is really hard to change the
> problem =
> >>it solves<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>in a way it still
> doesn&#3=
> >>9;t solve, whichever version you choose<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In missive &lt;<a
> href=3D3D"mailto:<=
> >>a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> ">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.n=
> >>et</a>"<br>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.203080=
> >>8 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;,
> Dave C=
> >>rocker typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><div><div><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On
> 9/18/2=
> >>012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive
> &lt=
> >>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<br>
> >>=A0>>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BV=
> >>q2A at mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>"<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>> target=3D3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1t=
> >>FcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mai=
> >>l.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;,<br>
> >>=A0>>> Par<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf
> typed:<=
> >>br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br=
> >>>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to read the relevant<br>
> >>=A0>>> prior=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> work (many pointers were
> given)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> &gt;&=
> >>;gt;Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon<br>
> >>=A0>>> Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br=
> >>>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of
> whe=
> >>ther this thread has been, or has<br>
> >>=A0>>> any=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>> hope of<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it
> was=
> >> not relevant...<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>>>
> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--&l=
> >>t;br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave
> Crocker<br>=
> >>;<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
> InternetW=
> >>orking<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a
> href=3D3D"=
> >><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
> tar=
> >>get=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=3D"_blank"=
> >>>bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> </a><b=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>r><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><span><font
> color=3D3D"#888888&quo=
> >>t;><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><=
> >>;/div><br><br clear=3D3D"all"><span<br>
> >>=A0>>> class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>b"><font
> color=3D3D"#888888"=
> >>;><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> target=3D"_blank">ht=
> >>tp://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>cience.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www=
> >>.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-scie=
> >>nce.org</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> </a><br><=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>></font></span></blockquote><=
> >>;/div><br>
> >>=A0>>>
> =A0>></blockquote></div><br><br =
> >>clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D3D"<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c
> </a>=
> >>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
> targ=
> >>et=3D"_blank">ontent-based-science.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank&qu=
> >>ot;><br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">
> e.org=
> >></a></a><br><br><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >></div></div>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On
> Wed,=
> >> Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft =3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>><span
> dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;&l=
> >>t;a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon=
> >>.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" target=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.ca=
> >>m.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span>
> wrot=
> >>e:<br><blockquote=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D"margin:=
> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc soli=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>d;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been
> studied =
> >>in<br><br>
> >>=A0>>great detail, =3DA0people have to make do with resources
> they ha=
> >>ve to<br><br>
> >>=A0>>hand<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> japa=
> >>n,<br><br>
> >>=A0>>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> desrib=
> >>ed<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing
> the =
> >>balloons is not the users&#39; task=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross
> wil=
> >>l prepare them.<br><br>=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0</div><blockquote
> class=3D3D&quo=
> >>t;gmail_quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br><br>
>
> >></div>=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br><br&g=
> >>t;MANET may not work for isolated users in a di=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from
> the=
> >> rest of the netw=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it
> has a =
> >>very low probability to=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>> work.<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote
> class=3D3D"gmail_=
> >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu=
> >>ot;><br>
> >></div>=A0>>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon
> idea is=
> >> a great<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>target for the other
> side<br></blockq=
> >>uote><div><br><br>I personally do not =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>argue for the army.. This is not really
> research,<br>becau=
> >>se they do obscur=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e things that we do not even know. They can just
> <br>use t=
> >>he most expensive=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> satellite phones. They do not care. <br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>=3DA0</div><blockquote
> class=3D3D"gmail_=
> >>quote" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex&qu=
> >>ot;><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon
> would b=
> >>e a big<br><br>
> >>=A0>>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under
> bridges.&=
> >>lt;br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>><br></blockquote><div><br=
> >>>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*.=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> Just use the infrastructure
> <br>network.<br><br&=
> >>gt;=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0p=
> >>t 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=3D<br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>your move, sunshine.<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>><br></blockquote><div></div><div>&=
> >>lt;/div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote" st=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>yle=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px
> sol=
> >>id rgb(204,204,204);padd=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ing-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>>In missive
> &lt;CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+Jz=
> >>Tx6F5g at mail.gma=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>il.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>com&gt;, Pars Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br><br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3D3DISO-8=
> >>859-1<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>><div><div
> class=3D3D"h5">=3DA0&g=
> >>t;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon.
> See:<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
> href=3D3D"<a h=
> >>ref=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D"
> target=3D"=
> >>_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=3D
> </a><br>
> >>=A0>>g12602.html" target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> href=3D"ht=
> >>tp://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www=
> >>.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=3D</a><br>
> >>=A0>>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon
> Crowc=
> >>roft<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;<a
> href=3D3D&q=
> >>uot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">jon.crowcroft at cl.c=
> >>am.ac.uk</a>">jon.crowcroft@=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
> cl.cam.ac.uk</=
> >>a></a>&gt;wrote:<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; Take the MANET example, sure.
> Many=
> >> use cases exist since AR=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>PA Packet radio<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; days. Battlefield networks,
> disast=
> >>er recovery networks, veh=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>icular<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; networks...some actually in
> use ad=
> >> deployed.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; The internet
> isn=
> >>&#39;t for just one <a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing"
> targe=
> >>t=3D"_blank">http://thing</a>=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>.it" target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> href=3D"http=
> >>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by
> definition, fo=
> >>r anything<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; we can imagine and
> realize...it is=
> >> the union of all communi=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>cations, not the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; intersection of one notion
> with on=
> >>e technology.<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; On 18 Sep
> 2012 1=
> >>7:48, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt;<a href=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com
> ">pars.mutaf@=
> >>gmail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com
> ">pars.mutaf at g=
> >>mail.com</a></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; On Tue, Sep 18, 2012
> at 7:=
> >>17 PM, Jon Crowcroft &lt;<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> <a hr=
> >>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowc=
> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>">Jon.Crowc=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:roft at cl.cam.ac.uk">roft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a>=
> >></a>&gt; wrote:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; this is what
> we us=
> >>ed to talk about as the<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &quot;my
> probl=
> >>em is too hard even for you&quot; pos=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>er syndrome<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; basically,
> wheneve=
> >>r you offer a workable solution,<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; the poser (of
> the =
> >>problem) changes the<br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; No I
> didn&#39;t =
> >>change the problem:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; What do we want for
> the In=
> >>ternet? Did we really ask thi=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>s question?<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Take MANET for
> example, th=
> >>ey did not ask themselves wha=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>t it is used for.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; They cannot
> explain.<br=
> >>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; I would start a new
> thread=
> >> &quot;What do we want for th=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e Internet&quot; =3DA0but I am<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; not sure if I should
> do th=
> >>is.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Pars<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; one of the
> nice th=
> >>ings about IP (and the E2E argume=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>nt(s))<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; is that it is
> real=
> >>ly hard to change the problem it =3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>solves<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; in a way it
> still =
> >>doesn&#39;t solve, whichever vers=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ion you choose<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; (well, ok,
> maybe n=
> >>ot IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive
> &lt=
> >>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d
> ">50589DCC=
> >>.2030808 at d</a>=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>><a href=3D"http://crocker.net"
> target=3D"_blank">crocker.n=
> >>et</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> ">50589DCC.2=
> >>030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br><br=
> >>>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&=
> >>lt;br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e:<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt=
> >>;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >><a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i=
> >>DwO%25">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">2BV2X=
> >>V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58i=
> >>DwO+V2X=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:V1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">V1tFcP5PgT+V=
> >>q2A at mail.gmail.com</a></a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt=
> >>;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;&gt; I encourage you to=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> read the relevant prior work (many<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; pointers were
> give=
> >>n)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;&gt; =3DA0 &gt;&gt;Only 1 pointer was give=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;&gt; it is exactly relevant.<br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;in the broader sense of whether this thr=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ead has been, or has any hope<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> of<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;being, constructive, it was not relevant=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>...<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;d/<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt;--<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt;&=
> >>gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0&gt=
> >>;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =
> >>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://bbiw.net"=
> >> target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>" target=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> tar=
> >>get=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a></a><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;
> =3DA0cheers<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> =3DA0jon<=
> >>br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; --<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a
> href=3D3D"<a hr=
> >>ef=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.co=
> >>ntent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://w=
> >>ww.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-sc=
> >>ience.org</a></a><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a
> href=3D3D"<a h=
> >>ref=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.c=
> >>ontent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blan=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>k"><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> targ=
> >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a></a><br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b=
> >>204ca091b8d<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=3D3DISO-88=
> >>59-1<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Transfer-Encoding:
> quoted-printable=
> >><br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You do not question enough Jon.
> See:&lt=
> >>;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;a hr=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ef=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a
> hre=
> >>f=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.ietf.org/=3D3D=
> >></a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://w"
> target=3D"=
> >>_blank">http://w</a>=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ww.ietf.org/=3D3D"
> target=3D"_blank">ww.ietf.o=
> >>rg/=3D3D</a></a><br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.htm=
> >>l&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D"
> target=3D"_=
> >>blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D3D</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank=
> >>"><a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/ma=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://ww=
> >>w.ietf.org/ma=3D</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>il-arch=3D3D</a><br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html&lt;=
> >>/a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;div
> class=3D3D3D&am=
> >>p;quot;gmail_=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;quote&quot;&gt;<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM,
> Jon=
> >> Crowcroft &lt;span dir=3D3D3=3D<br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>D&quot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&a=
> >>mp;lt;a hr=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ef=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:<a
> href=3D3D&q=
> >>uot;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">jon.crowcroft at cl.c=
> >>am.ac.uk</a>=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>"><a href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">jo=
> >>n.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&quot;
> target=3D3D3D&quot;_bl=
> >>ank&quot;&gt;jon=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>.crowcroft at cl=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://cam=
> >>.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">http://cam.ac.uk</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blan=
> >>k"><a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk
> </a><=
> >>/a>&lt=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt;
> wrote:&lt;br&am=
> >>p;gt;&lt;blockquote class=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;gmail_quote&quot; style=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-l=
> >>eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;Take the MANET
> example, su=
> >>re. Many use cases exist sinc=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>e ARPA Packet rad=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;io days. Battlefield networks,
> disast=
> >>er recovery networks, vehic=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ular networ=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ks...some actually in use ad
> deployed.&=
> >>lt;/p&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;p&gt;The internet
> isn&amp;#=
> >>39;t for just one &lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>&quot;<a href=3D3D"<a
> href=3D"http=
> >>://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>"
> target=3D3D"_=
> >>blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">
> http://thing.i=
> >>t</a></a>&quo=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>t; target=3D3D<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;&l=
> >>t;a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://thing.it" target=3D"_blank">
> http://thi=
> >>ng.it</a>" target=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> target=3D"_bla=
> >>nk">thing.it</a></a>&lt;/a&gt; is, by definition, for
> anythin=
> >>g we can imag=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ine and=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; realize...it is the union of all
> com=
> >>munications, not the inters=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ection of o=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;ne notion with one
> technology.&lt;/p&am=
> >>p;gt;<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div
> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quo=
> >>te&quot;&gt;On 18 Sep 2012 17:4=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>8, &amp;quot;Pars Mutaf&amp;quot;
> &amp;lt=3D3D<br=
> >>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;;&lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;mailto:
> <=
> >>a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail
> .">pars.mutaf at gma=
> >>il.</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>com"><a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com
> ">pars.mutaf@=
> >>gmail.com</a></a>&quot;
> target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&a=
> >>mp;gt;pars.m=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>utaf at gmail=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;.com&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;
> wrote:&a=
> >>mp;lt;br type=3D3D3D&quot;attribution&q=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>uot;&gt;&lt;blockquote
> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quot=
> >>=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e&quot;
> style=3D3D3D&quot;mar=
> >>gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=3D<br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>olid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&gt;<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt=
> >>;div class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quot;&gt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;wcroft &lt;span
> dir=3D3D3D&qu=
> >>ot;ltr&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>3D&quot;mailto:<a
> href=3D3D"mailto=
> >>:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</=
> >>a>">Jon.Crowcroft@=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
> cl.cam.ac.uk</=
> >>a></a>&quot; =3D3D<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&=
> >>;gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft
> ">Jon.Crowcr=
> >>oft</a>=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>@<a href=3D"http://cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=3D"_blank">cl.cam.=
> >>ac.uk</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcr=
> >>oft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;&lt;/span&a=
> >>mp;gt=3D<br>
> >>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>;
> wrote:&lt;br&gt;&lt;bloc=3D3D<=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;kquote
> class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&am=
> >>p;quot; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;c
> solid;padding-left:1ex&quot;&am=
> >>p;gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;this is what we used to talk about as
> the&a=
> >>mp;lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&amp;quot;my problem is too hard
> even f=
> >>or you&amp;quot; poser sy=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ndrome&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;basically, whenever you offer a
> worka=
> >>ble solution,&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;the poser (of the problem) changes
> the&=
> >>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;problem (or the
> assumptions)&lt;br&=
> >>gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;div=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>&gt;&lt;br&gt;No I
> didn&amp;#3=
> >>9;t chang=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;e the
> problem:&lt;br&gt;&=
> >>lt;br&gt;What do we want for the Intern=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>et? Did we really ask t=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;his
> question?&lt;br&gt;&l=
> >>t;br&gt;Take MANET for example, they di=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>d not ask themselves wh=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;at it is used for. They cannot
> explai=
> >>n. &lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;I would start a new
> threa=
> >>d &amp;quot;What do we want f=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>or the
> Internet&amp;quot;=3D3D<br><b=
> >>r>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0 but I am not sure if I
> should=
> >> do this. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>;Cheers,
> &lt;br&gt;Pars&lt;br&=
> >>gt;=3D3DA0&lt;=3D3D<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;block=
> >>quote class=3D3D3D&quot;gmail_quote&quo=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>t; style=3D3D3D&quot;margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8e=3D3D<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;x;border-left:1px solid
> rgb(204,204,204);pa=
> >>dding-left:1ex&quot;&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>gt;<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;one of the nice things about IP (and
> the E2=
> >>E argument(s))&lt;br&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;is that it is really hard to change the
> pro=
> >>blem it solves&lt;br&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in a way it still doesn&amp;#39;t
> solve=
> >>, whichever version you c=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>hoose&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;(well, ok, maybe not
> IPv5:)&lt;br&g=
> >>t;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a
> href=3D3D3=
> >>D&quot;mailto:<a href=3D3D"mailto=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> ">50589DCC.20308=
> >>08 at dcrocker.net</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.ne=
> >>t">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&quot; tar=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>get=3D3D3D&quot;_=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;blank&quot;&gt;<a
> href=3D3D"=
> >>;mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> ">50589DCC.2030808 at d=
> >>crocker.net</a>">=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> ">50589DCC.=
> >>2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;, Dave
> Croc=
> >>ker typed:&lt=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;div&gt;&=
> >>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
> >>mp;gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;On
> 9/18/2012=
> >> 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >> In missive &amp;lt;&lt;a href=3D3D3D=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>&quot;mailto:<a
> href=3D3D"mailto:<=
> >>a href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM</a>=
> >>">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> href=3D"mail=
> >>to:58iDwO%25252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%25252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c
> ">58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP=
> >>5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>om"><a href=3D"mailto:
> 58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A@=
> >>mail.gmail.com">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a></a>&=
> >>amp;quot; target=3D3D3D&quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;_blank&quot;&gt;CACQuiebE-s=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> href=3D"mail=
> >>to:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at m
> ">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDw=
> >>O%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ail.gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">
> ail.gmail.com=
> >></a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2=
> >>A at mail.gmail.com">
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</=
> >>a></a>&=3D<br>
> >>
> >></div>=A0>>lt;/a&gt;&amp;gt;,
> Par&lt;br&gt;<br>=
> >><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >> s Mutaf typed:&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt; I e=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>ncourage you to read the relevant
> prior=3D3D&l=
> >>t;br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; work (many pointers were
> given)&=
> >>lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >> =3D3DA0 &amp;gt;&amp;gt;Only 1 point=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft),
> it=3D3D<br=
> >>><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; is not
> relevant.&lt;br&gt;&l=
> >>t;br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&amp;gt;=
> >> it is exactly relevant.&lt;br&gt;<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
> >>mp;gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
> >>mp;gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;in the
> broad=
> >>er sense of whether this thread=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>> has been, or has any=3D3D<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; hope
> of&lt;br&gt;<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;being,
> const=
> >>ructive, it was not relevant...=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
> >>mp;gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;d/&lt;br=
> >>&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;&lt;br&a=
> >>mp;gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;--&lt;br=
> >>&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;
> =3D3DA0Dave=
> >> Crocker&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;
> =3D3DA0Bran=
> >>denburg InternetWorking&lt;br&gt;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0&amp;gt;&amp;gt;
> =3D3DA0&=
> >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http:=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>//<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=3D"_blank=
> >>">bbiw.net</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://bbi=
> >>w.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a></a>&quot;
> target=3D3=
> >>D3D&quot;_b=3D<br>
> >>
> >></div>=A0>>lank&quot;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a
> href=3D"http=
> >>://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
> target=3D3D"_=
> >>blank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
> </a>&l=
> >>t;/a>&lt=3D<br>
> >>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>;/a&gt;&lt;b=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;r&gt;<br><br>
> >></div><div
> class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&=
> >>lt;br><br>
>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/div&=
> >>gt;=3D3DA0cheers&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;span&gt;&lt;font
> color=3D3D=
> >>3D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3DA0
> =3D3DA0jon&lt;br&gt;<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&=
> >>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;br&=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>gt;&lt;br
> clear=3D3D3D&quot;all&quot;&gt;&lt=
> >>;span class=3D3D3D&quot;HOEnZ=3D3D<br=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;b&quot;&gt;&lt;font
> color=3D3D3=
> >>D&quot;#888888&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;-=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>- &lt;br&gt;&lt;a
> href=3D3D3D&=
> >>quot;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> target=3D"=
> >>_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>" tar=3D<br>
> >></div>=A0>>get=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.conten=
> >>t-based-s" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s
> </a></a>=3D3D&=
> >>lt;br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://cien=
> >>ce.org" target=3D"_blank">http://cience.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_bla=
> >>nk"><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org
> </a>&=
> >>lt;/a>&q=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>uot; target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&quot;&gt;<a
> href=
> >>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-s"
> target=3D"_blank">http://=
> >>www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org" target=3D"_blank">cience.org
> </a>&q=
> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
> </a></=
> >>a>&lt;/=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>a&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;br&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&=
> >>amp;lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/div&=
> >>;gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br clear=3D3D3D&quot;=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>all&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;--
> &lt;br&gt;&=
> >>;lt;a href=3D3D3D&quot;<a href=3D3D"http://=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>www.c"
> target=3D3D"_blank"><=
> >>a href=3D"http://www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c
> </a></a>=3D3D&l=
> >>t;br><br>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a
> href=3D"http:=
> >>//ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://ontent-based-science.o=
> >>rg</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">on=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://tent-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blank">tent=
> >>-based-science.org</a></a>&quot;
> target=3D3D3D&quot;_blank&am=
> >>p;quot;&gt;<a href=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"
> target=3D=
> >>"_blank">http://www.content-based-scienc</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank&=
> >>quot;><a href=3D"http://www.content-b" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.cont=
> >>ent-b</a>=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>ased-scienc</a>=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://e.or=
> >>g" target=3D"_blank">http://e.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank"&g=
> >>t;<a href=3D"http://e.org" target=3D"_blank">e.org
> </a></a>&lt;/a&=
> >>amp;gt;&l=3D<br>
> >>
> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div
> class=3D"h5">=A0>>t;br&gt;&lt;br&a=
> >>mp;gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>=A0>><span class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><font
> color=3D3D&quo=
> >>t;#888888"><br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> targ=
> >>et=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"
> target=3D3D&qu=
> >>ot;_blank"><a href=3D"http://www.cont" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www=
> >>.cont</a>=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ent-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blank">ent-b=
> >>ased-science.org</a></a><br><br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0cheers<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >><br>
> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D"=
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-=
> >>based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>
> >>--f46d04339cae5729e404ca0e9ca6--
>
> cheers
>
> jon
>
>
--
http://www.content-based-science.org
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