[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Jon Crowcroft
Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
Wed Sep 19 08:41:53 PDT 2012
yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
i dont.
lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days...
coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with
the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....
something mon golfier frere hasn't
being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is
where and what resources are still working would be good
i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters
(like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)
In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:
>>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big
>>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power.
>>
>>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
>>
>>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
>>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
>>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
>>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
>>>
>>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
>>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
>>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
>>>
>>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
>>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
>>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
>>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
>>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
>>>optimse resoruce allocation.
>>>
>>>
>>>the balloons are visible here
>>>http://xkcd.com/1110/
>>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
>>>
>>>
>>>In missive <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
>>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>
>>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in
>>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
>>> >>> hand
>>> >>>
>>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,
>>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
>>> >>
>>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
>>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
>>> >>
>>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to work.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great
>>> >>> target for the other side
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really research,
>>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can just
>>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
>>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
>>> >>infrastructure
>>> >>network.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> your move, sunshine.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> In missive
>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
>>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since ARPA Packet
>>> >>> radio
>>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by definition, for
>>> >>> anything
>>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all communications,
>>> >>> not the
>>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
>>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
>>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
>>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
>>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
>>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this question?
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what it is used
>>> >>> for.
>>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>>Internet" but I
>>> >>> am
>>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> Cheers,
>>> >>> >>>> Pars
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
>>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
>>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose
>>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker typed:
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> >>> Par
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>>> >>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior work (many
>>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not
>>> >>> relevant.
>>> >>> >>>>> >>>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
>>>or has any
>>> >>> hope
>>> >>> >>>>> of
>>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>d/
>>> >>> >>>>> >>
>>> >>> >>>>> >>--
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
>>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> cheers
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>> jon
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>> --
>>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>>>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--
>>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
>>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
>>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
>>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
>>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
>>> >>> >>quote">
>>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
>>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
>>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
>>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>> >>> style=
>>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
>>>ARPA Packet
>>> >>> rad=
>>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks, vehicular
>>> >>> networ=
>>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
>>> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>> >>> target=
>>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we can
>>> >>> imagine and=
>>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the intersection
>>> >>> of o=
>>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
>>>Mutaf"
>>> >>> <=
>>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
>>> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
>>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
>>>7:17 PM, Jon
>>> >>> Cro=
>>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
>>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
>>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
>>>.8ex;border-left:1px
>>> >>> #cc=
>>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
>>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I didn't
>>> >>> chang=
>>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did we really
>>> >>> ask t=
>>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>> >>> themselves wh=
>>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
>>> >>> Internet"=
>>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
>>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
>>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>> >>> 0.8e=
>>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
>>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
>>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you choose<br>
>>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
>>> >>> target=3D"_=
>>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>> >>> >><div><div><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
>>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
>>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
>>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
>>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>,
>>> >>> Par<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the relevant
>>> >>> prior=
>>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
>>> >>> Crowcroft), it=
>>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has
>>>been, or has
>>> >>> any=
>>> >>> >> hope of<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net
>>> >>> </a><b=
>>> >>> >>r>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>> >><br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
>>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
>>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>> </a><br><=
>>> >>> >>br>
>>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
>>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
>>> >>> http://www.c=
>>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
>>> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>> >>
>>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
>>> >>>
>>> >>> cheers
>>> >>>
>>> >>> jon
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>--
>>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>>> >>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
>>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>>> >>
>>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
>>>Crowcroft =
>>> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>>>wrote:<br><blockquote=
>>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
>>>#ccc soli=
>>> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied in<br>
>>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have to<br>
>>> >>hand<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia, japan,<br>
>>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you desribed<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the
>>>users' task=
>>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
>>>them.<br><br>=
>>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt
>>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=
>>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated
>>>users in a di=
>>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest
>>>of the netw=
>>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
>>>probability to=
>>> >> work.<br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a great<br>
>>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I
>>>personally do not =
>>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they
>>>do obscur=
>>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
>>>expensive=
>>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
>>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
>>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
>>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >><br>
>>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big<br>
>>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
>>>dangerous*.=
>>> >> Just use the infrastructure
>>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
>>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
>>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>>> >>
>>> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
>>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
>>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
>>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
>>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=
>>> >>ing-left:1ex">
>>> >>In missive
>>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
>>> >>il.<br>
>>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><a
>>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
>>> >>g12602.html"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
>>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>>> >>=A0>><<a
>>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
>>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
>exist since AR=
>>> >>PA Packet radio<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
>>>networks, veh=
>>> >>icular<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a
>>>href=3D"http://thing=
>>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of
>>>all communi=
>>> >>cations, not the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"
>>><<a href=3D=
>>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> <a
>>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
>>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for
>>>you" pos=
>>> >>er syndrome<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable
>>>solution,<=
>>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we
>>>really ask thi=
>>> >>s question?<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask
>>>themselves wha=
>>> >>t it is used for.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we
>>>want for th=
>>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the
>>>E2E argume=
>>> >>nt(s))<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the
>>>problem it =
>>> >>solves<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve,
>>>whichever vers=
>>> >>ion you choose<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a
>>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
>>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>>Crowcroft wrot=
>>> >>e:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> <a
>>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
>>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
>>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I
>>>encourage you to=
>>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1
>>>pointer was give=
>>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of
>>>whether this thr=
>>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was
>>>not relevant=
>>> >>...<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
>>> >>=A0>>>> <a
>>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
>>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>>target=3D"_blan=
>>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
>>>See:<br><br><a hr=
>>> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://w=
>>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
>>>href=3D=
>>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
>>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
>>> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
>>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
>>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>>><span dir=3D3=
>>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
>>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
>>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk"
>>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><=
>>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
>>>class=3D3D"=
>>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
>>>solid;padding-=
>>> >>left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
>>>exist sinc=
>>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
>>>networks, vehic=
>>> >>ular networ=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
>>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
>>>href=3D3D=
>>> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
>>> >>t; target=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
>>>target=3D=
>>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything
>>>we can imag=
>>> >>ine and=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not
>>>the inters=
>>> >>ection of o=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep
>>>2012 17:4=
>>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
>>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
>>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
>>> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
>>>type=3D3D"attribution&q=
>>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
>>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
>>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br><div
>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
>>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span
>>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
>>> >>3D"mailto:<a
>>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a
>>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
>>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a></a>&gt;</span>=
>>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>>>style=3D3D"margin:=
>>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for
>>>you&quot; poser sy=
>>> >>ndrome<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>problem (or the
>>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
>>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for
>>>the Intern=
>>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for
>>>example, they di=
>>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do
>>>we want f=
>>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
>>><br><br>=
>>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
>>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
>>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
>>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
>>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
>>>argument(s))<br&=
>>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
>>>solves<br&=
>>> >>gt;<br>
>>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever
>>>version you c=
>>> >>hoose<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
>>>href=3D"mailto=
>>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>"
>>>tar=
>>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>>blank"><a
>>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
>>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
>>>typed:<=
>>> >>;br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
>>>Crowcroft wrote:&=
>>> >>lt;br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
>>>href=3D3D=
>>> >>"mailto:<a
>>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
>>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a
>>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
>>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
>>>target=3D3D"=
>>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a
>>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
>>> >>ail.gmail.com">XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
>>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
>>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e=
>>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
>>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point=
>>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
>>>relevant.<br><=
>>> >>br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether
>>>this thread=
>>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
>>>relevant...=
>>> >><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
>>>InternetWorking<br>=
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
>>>href=3D"http:=
>>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
>>>target=3D3D"_b=
>>> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
>>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><=
>>> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>r><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><span><font
>>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
>>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
>>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
>>> >>>
>>> >>=A0>>b"><font
>>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
>>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
>>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
>>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
>>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
>>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a
>>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
>>> >>cience.org"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
>>> >>a><br><=3D<br>
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>>br><br>
>>> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
>>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
>>>clear=3D3D"=
>>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
>>>href=3D"http://=
>>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
>>>target=3D"_blank">on=
>>> >>tent-based-science.org</a>" target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=
>>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
>>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
>>> >>
>>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org"
>>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&l=
>>> >>t;br><br><br>
>>> >>=A0>><br>
>>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >>=A0cheers<br>
>>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>>> >><br>
>>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a href=
>>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
>>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>>> >>
>>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
>>>
>>> cheers
>>>
>>> jon
>>
cheers
jon
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