[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf
pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Wed Sep 19 08:45:21 PDT 2012
On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 6:41 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> yes - the ballonist assumes you'd have electricity
>
> i dont.
>
> lifetime of opportunistic net made out of cell phones
> running our modified twitter client to tell people where you are
> and send hashtag data with sensor net is about 7 days...
>
> coverage? depends on mobility patterns of scavenger missions and
> landscape/territory - given the way people surivve in clusters (see
> for example google's mapping of haiti earthquake damage),
> it can be very good, in fact, if you design your manet/dtn routing with
> the actual human movement/location patterns in mind....
>
You can design the most incredibly intelligent algorithms, you cannot
solve the network partition problem. People will die simply.
>
> something mon golfier frere hasn't
>
> being able to hand the disaster teams 72 hours later with a map of who is
> where and what resources are still working would be good
>
> i nteh book i cited, not knowing this led to susequent followup diasters
> (like shooting people who were sharing water thinking they were looters)
>
>
> In missive <a06240840cc7f93d8f735@[10.0.1.3]>, John Day typed:
>
> >>You seem to be assuming you have electricity. Which seems like a big
> >>assumption. Not much of a disaster if you still have power.
> >>
> >>I can see you guys haven't been in many disasters.
> >>
> >>At 15:04 +0100 2012/09/19, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>>the resources to put enough ballons (as many as cell towers) in
> >>>all the areas where there might be a disaster are simply
> >>>insufficient. certainyl the red cross has neither the skillset,
> >>>nor the spare money to attempt anything so ludicrous.
> >>>
> >>>on the other hand, the self-orgsanition of people during disasters
> >>>will serve very well to build an opportunistic wireless net for
> >>>the 3 days before more resources arrive.
> >>>
> >>>the use of a self-monitoring, self organising network could also
> >>>provide valuble on-the-ground sensory and situational awareness
> >>>input which when logged, would help the diaster relief teams find
> >>>where self help groups existed with resources and where to provide
> >>>help - it would support, essentially, a triage system for how to
> >>>optimse resoruce allocation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>the balloons are visible here
> >>>http://xkcd.com/1110/
> >>>if you clock and drag far enough along...
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>In missive
> <CACQuieYE2E_3dr55Gvi0yuZm+w0CG+KzK4G=1ZXwdcz+wqnkwA at mail.gmail.
> >>>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>>
> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied
> in
> >>> >>> great detail, people have to make do with resources they have to
> >>> >>> hand
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> japan,
> >>> >>> california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> desribed
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>Preparing the balloons is not the users' task of course.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Organizations like red cross will prepare them.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> what many DO have is phones and laptops.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> manets can be usefully built out of these.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>MANET may not work for isolated users in a disaster scenario
> >>> >>because they are too far away from the rest of the network.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low probability to
> work.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
> great
> >>> >>> target for the other side
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>I personally do not argue for the army.. This is not really
> research,
> >>> >>because they do obscure things that we do not even know. They can
> just
> >>> >>use the most expensive satellite phones. They do not care.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a big
> >>> >>> drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily dangerous*. Just use the
> >>> >>infrastructure
> >>> >>network.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> your move, sunshine.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> In missive
> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gmail.
> >>> >>> com>, Pars Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >>> >><jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
> ARPA Packet
> >>> >>> radio
> >>> >>> >>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehicular
> >>> >>> >>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>> The internet isn't for just one thing.it is, by
> definition, for
> >>> >>> anything
> >>> >>> >>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of all
> communications,
> >>> >>> not the
> >>> >>> >>> intersection of one notion with one technology.
> >>> >>> >>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
> >>> >>> >>>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> this is what we used to talk about as the
> >>> >>> >>>>> "my problem is too hard even for you" poser syndrome
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,
> >>> >>> >>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the
> >>> >>> >>>>> problem (or the assumptions)
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> No I didn't change the problem:
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we really ask this
> question?
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask themselves what
> it is used
> >>> >>> for.
> >>> >>> >>>> They cannot explain.
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
> >>>Internet" but I
> >>> >>> am
> >>> >>> >>>> not sure if I should do this.
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> Cheers,
> >>> >>> >>>> Pars
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))
> >>> >>> >>>>> is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves
> >>> >>> >>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
> choose
> >>> >>> >>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> In missive <50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net>, Dave Crocker
> typed:
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> In missive <
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>>CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com>,
> >>> >>> Par
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>> I encourage you to read the relevant prior
> work (many
> >>> >>> >>>>> pointers were given)
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it
> is not
> >>> >>> relevant.
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>> it is exactly relevant.
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>in the broader sense of whether this thread has been,
> >>>or has any
> >>> >>> hope
> >>> >>> >>>>> of
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>being, constructive, it was not relevant...
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>d/
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>
> >>> >>> >>>>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Dave Crocker
> >>> >>> >>>>> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >>> >>> >>>>> >> bbiw.net
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> cheers
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>> jon
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>> --
> >>> >>> >>>> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>>>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--
> >>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br><br><a href=3D"
> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/=
> >>> >>> >>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html">
> >>> >>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=
> >>> >>> >>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br><br><br><div
> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_=
> >>> >>> >>quote">
> >>> >>> >>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span
> >>> >>> dir=3D"ltr"><<a hr=
> >>> >>> >>ef=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">jon.crowcroft at cl=
> >>> >>> >>.cam.ac.uk</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>> >>> style=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases exist since
> >>>ARPA Packet
> >>> >>> rad=
> >>> >>> >>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery networks,
> vehicular
> >>> >>> networ=
> >>> >>> >>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p>
> >>> >>> >><p>The internet isn't for just one <a href=3D"
> http://thing.it"
> >>> >>> target=
> >>> >>> >>=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for anything we
> can
> >>> >>> imagine and=
> >>> >>> >> realize...it is the union of all communications, not the
> intersection
> >>> >>> of o=
> >>> >>> >>ne notion with one technology.</p>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars
> >>>Mutaf"
> >>> >>> <=
> >>> >>> >>;<a href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">pars.mutaf at gmail=
> >>> >>> >>.com</a>> wrote:<br type=3D"attribution"><blockquote
> >>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
> >>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>> >>> solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at
> >>>7:17 PM, Jon
> >>> >>> Cro=
> >>> >>> >>wcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" =
> >>> >>> >>target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>> >>> wrote:<br><bloc=
> >>> >>> >>kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px
> >>> >>> #cc=
> >>> >>> >>c solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>this is what we used to talk about as the<br>
> >>> >>> >>"my problem is too hard even for you" poser
> syndrome<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>basically, whenever you offer a workable solution,<br>
> >>> >>> >>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>> >>problem (or the assumptions)<br></blockquote><div><br>No I
> didn't
> >>> >>> chang=
> >>> >>> >>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for the Internet? Did
> we really
> >>> >>> ask t=
> >>> >>> >>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> >>> >>> themselves wh=
> >>> >>> >>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><br>I would start a new thread "What do we want for the
> >>> >>> Internet"=
> >>> >>> >>=A0 but I am not sure if I should do this. <br><br>Cheers,
> >>> >>> <br>Pars<br>=A0<=
> >>> >>> >>br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>> >>> 0.8e=
> >>> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E argument(s))<br>
> >>> >>> >>is that it is really hard to change the problem it solves<br>
> >>> >>> >>in a way it still doesn't solve, whichever version you
> choose<br>
> >>> >>> >>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >>In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> 50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_=
> >>> >>> >>blank">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >><div><div><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft wrote:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> In missive <<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> >>> CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM=
> >>> >>> >>58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com"
> >>> >>> target=3D"_blank">CACQuiebE-s=
> >>> >>> >>XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com
> </a>>,
> >>> >>> Par<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>> I encourage you to read the
> relevant
> >>> >>> prior=
> >>> >>> >> work (many pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1 pointer was given (by Jon
> >>> >>> Crowcroft), it=
> >>> >>> >> is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>in the broader sense of whether this thread has
> >>>been, or has
> >>> >>> any=
> >>> >>> >> hope of<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>being, constructive, it was not relevant...<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0Brandenburg InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">
> bbiw.net
> >>> >>> </a><b=
> >>> >>> >>r>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >></div></div>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>> >><span><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><span
> >>> >>> class=3D"HOEnZ=
> >>> >>> >>b"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>-- <br><a href=3D"
> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>> >>cience.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>> </a><br><=
> >>> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div>
> >>> >>> >></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D"
> >>> >>> http://www.c=
> >>> >>> >>ontent-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> >>> http://www.content-based-scienc=
> >>> >>> >>e.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> cheers
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> jon
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--
> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>
> >>> >><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Jon
> >>>Crowcroft =
> >>> >><span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"
> target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>>wrote:<br><blockquote=
> >>> >> class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
> >>>#ccc soli=
> >>> >>d;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>in a typical disaster scenario, many of whuch have been studied
> in<br>
> >>> >>great detail, =A0people have to make do with resources they have
> to<br>
> >>> >>hand<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>they may be spread over a large area (e.g all of indonesia,
> japan,<br>
> >>> >>california) and not be prepared with giant ballons as you
> desribed<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Preparing the balloons is not the
> >>>users' task=
> >>> >> of course. <br><br>Organizations like red cross will prepare
> >>>them.<br><br>=
> >>> >>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt
> >>>0pt 0pt 0.8e=
> >>> >>x;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>what many DO have is phones and laptops.<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>manets can be usefully built out of these.<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br><br>MANET may not work for isolated
> >>>users in a di=
> >>> >>saster scenario <br>because they are too far away from the rest
> >>>of the netw=
> >>> >>ork. <br><br>So MANET is not only useless, it has a very low
> >>>probability to=
> >>> >> work.<br>
> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>in a military scenario i menion, your giant ballon idea is a
> great<br>
> >>> >>target for the other side<br></blockquote><div><br><br>I
> >>>personally do not =
> >>> >>argue for the army.. This is not really research,<br>because they
> >>>do obscur=
> >>> >>e things that we do not even know. They can just <br>use the most
> >>>expensive=
> >>> >> satellite phones. They do not care. <br>
> >>> >><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> >>>style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt =
> >>> >>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>in the vehicular scenario i menion, a giant ballon would be a
> big<br>
> >>> >>drag, especially when you go through tunnels and under bridges.<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div><br>Vehicular networks are *unnecessarily
> >>>dangerous*.=
> >>> >> Just use the infrastructure
> >>><br>network.<br><br>=A0</div><blockquote class=
> >>> >>=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>>0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rg=
> >>> >>b(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>your move, sunshine.<br>
> >>> >><br></blockquote><div></div><div></div><blockquote
> >>>class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
> >>> >>yle=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padd=
> >>> >>ing-left:1ex">
> >>> >>In missive
> >>><CACQuieY3JBSFUvL_ugse4VRhT4xofOHyZZdvRHNdt+JzTx6F5g at mail.gma=
> >>> >>il.<br>
> >>> >>com>, Pars Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon. See:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a
> >>>href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/current/ms=
> >>> >>g12602.html"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/manet/c=
> >>> >>urrent/msg12602.html</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">jon.crowcroft@=
> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
> >exist since AR=
> >>> >>PA Packet radio<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> >>>networks, veh=
> >>> >>icular<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> networks...some actually in use ad deployed.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> The internet isn't for just one <a
> >>>href=3D"http://thing=
> >>> >>.it" target=3D"_blank">thing.it</a> is, by definition, for
> anything<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> we can imagine and realize...it is the union of
> >>>all communi=
> >>> >>cations, not the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> intersection of one notion with one technology.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>> On 18 Sep 2012 17:48, "Pars Mutaf"
> >>><<a href=3D=
> >>> >>"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>>
> wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Crowcroft
> <<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowc=
> >>> >>roft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>> wrote:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> this is what we used to talk about as
> the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> "my problem is too hard even for
> >>>you" pos=
> >>> >>er syndrome<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> basically, whenever you offer a workable
> >>>solution,<=
> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> the poser (of the problem) changes the<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> problem (or the assumptions)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> No I didn't change the problem:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> What do we want for the Internet? Did we
> >>>really ask thi=
> >>> >>s question?<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Take MANET for example, they did not ask
> >>>themselves wha=
> >>> >>t it is used for.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> They cannot explain.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> I would start a new thread "What do we
> >>>want for th=
> >>> >>e Internet" =A0but I am<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> not sure if I should do this.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Cheers,<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> Pars<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> one of the nice things about IP (and the
> >>>E2E argume=
> >>> >>nt(s))<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> is that it is really hard to change the
> >>>problem it =
> >>> >>solves<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> in a way it still doesn't solve,
> >>>whichever vers=
> >>> >>ion you choose<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> (well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> In missive <<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at d=
> >>> >>crocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a>>, Dave Crocker
> typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> >>>Crowcroft wrot=
> >>> >>e:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> In missive <<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> <a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%=
> >>> >>2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com
> ">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2X=
> >>> >>V1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>> I
> >>>encourage you to=
> >>> >> read the relevant prior work (many<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> pointers were given)<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> =A0 >>Only 1
> >>>pointer was give=
> >>> >>n (by Jon Crowcroft), it is not relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>> it is exactly relevant.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>in the broader sense of
> >>>whether this thr=
> >>> >>ead has been, or has any hope<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> of<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>being, constructive, it was
> >>>not relevant=
> >>> >>...<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>d/<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Dave Crocker<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0Brandenburg
> InternetWorking<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0>> =A0<a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0cheers<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>> =A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> --<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>> <a
> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=
> >>> >>=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> >>>target=3D"_blan=
> >>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >></div></div>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/html; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>You do not question enough Jon.
> >>>See:<br><br><a hr=
> >>> >>ef=3D3D"<a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/=3D"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://w=
> >>> >>ww.ietf.org/=3D</a><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>mail-archive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html"><a
> >>>href=3D=
> >>> >>"http://www.ietf.org/mail-arch=3D"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/ma=
> >>> >>il-arch=3D</a><br>
> >>>
> >>=A0>>ive/web/manet/current/msg12602.html</a><br><br>=
> >>> >>;<br><br><div class=3D3D"gmail_=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>quote"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 10:17 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>><span dir=3D3=
> >>> >>D"ltr">&lt;<a hr=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>ef=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
> >>> >>">jon.crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"
> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">jon=
> >>> >>.crowcroft at cl=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>.<a href=3D"http://cam.ac.uk"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">cam.ac.uk</a><=
> >>> >>;/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote
> >>>class=3D3D"=
> >>> >>;gmail_quote" style=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
> >>>solid;padding-=
> >>> >>left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><p>Take the MANET example, sure. Many use cases
> >>>exist sinc=
> >>> >>e ARPA Packet rad=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>io days. Battlefield networks, disaster recovery
> >>>networks, vehic=
> >>> >>ular networ=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>ks...some actually in use ad deployed.</p><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><p>The internet isn&#39;t for just one <a
> >>>href=3D3D=
> >>> >>"<a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://thing.it</a>&quo=
> >>> >>t; target=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"http://thing.it"
> >>>target=3D=
> >>> >>"_blank">thing.it</a></a> is, by definition, for anything
> >>>we can imag=
> >>> >>ine and=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> realize...it is the union of all communications, not
> >>>the inters=
> >>> >>ection of o=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>ne notion with one technology.</p><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><div class=3D3D"gmail_quote">On 18 Sep
> >>>2012 17:4=
> >>> >>8, &quot;Pars Mutaf&quot; &lt=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:pars.mutaf at gmail.=
> >>> >>com">pars.mutaf at gmail.com</a>"
> >>>target=3D3D"_blank">pars.m=
> >>> >>utaf at gmail=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br
> >>>type=3D3D"attribution&q=
> >>> >>uot;><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>>.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
> >>> >>olid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br><div
> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote">=
> >>> >>;On Tue, Sep 18, 2012 at 7:17 PM, Jon Cro=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>wcroft <span
> >>>dir=3D3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
> >>> >>3D"mailto:<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft@=
> >>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>" =3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft=
> >>> >>@cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&gt;</span>=
> >>> >>; wrote:<br><bloc=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>kquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> >>>style=3D3D"margin:=
> >>> >>0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>c solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>this is what we used to talk about as the<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>&quot;my problem is too hard even for
> >>>you&quot; poser sy=
> >>> >>ndrome<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>basically, whenever you offer a workable
> solution,<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>the poser (of the problem) changes the<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>problem (or the
> >>>assumptions)<br></blockquote><div=
> >>> >>><br>No I didn&#39;t chang=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>e the problem:<br><br>What do we want for
> >>>the Intern=
> >>> >>et? Did we really ask t=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>his question?<br><br>Take MANET for
> >>>example, they di=
> >>> >>d not ask themselves wh=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>at it is used for. They cannot explain. <br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>I would start a new thread &quot;What do
> >>>we want f=
> >>> >>or the Internet&quot;=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 but I am not sure if I should do this.
> >>><br><br>=
> >>> >>;Cheers, <br>Pars<br>=3DA0<=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>br></div><blockquote
> >>>class=3D3D"gmail_quote&quo=
> >>> >>t; style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8e=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>x;border-left:1px solid
> >>>rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"&=
> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>one of the nice things about IP (and the E2E
> >>>argument(s))<br&=
> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>is that it is really hard to change the problem it
> >>>solves<br&=
> >>> >>gt;<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>in a way it still doesn&#39;t solve, whichever
> >>>version you c=
> >>> >>hoose<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>(well, ok, maybe not IPv5:)<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto=
> >>> >>:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net
> </a>"
> >>>tar=
> >>> >>get=3D3D"_=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>blank"><a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net">=
> >>> >>50589DCC.2030808 at dcrocker.net</a></a>&gt;, Dave Crocker
> >>>typed:<=
> >>> >>;br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><div><div><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;On 9/18/2012 3:35 AM, Jon
> >>>Crowcroft wrote:&=
> >>> >>lt;br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; In missive &lt;<a
> >>>href=3D3D=
> >>> >>"mailto:<a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:CACQuiebE-sXDZD-xxaeC2iWfM">CACQuiebE-sXDZD-=
> >>> >>xxaeC2iWfM</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:58iDwO%252BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%252BVq2A at mail.gmail.c=
> >>> >>om">58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>"
> >>>target=3D3D"=
> >>> >>;_blank">CACQuiebE-s=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a
> >>>href=3D"mailto:XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO%2BV2XV1tFcP5PgT%2BVq2A at m=
> >>> >>ail.gmail.com">
> XDZD-xxaeC2iWfM58iDwO+V2XV1tFcP5PgT+Vq2A at mail.gmail.com</a>&=
> >>> >>lt;/a>&gt;, Par<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; s Mutaf
> typed:<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> >>>&gt;&gt;&gt; I e=
> >>> >>ncourage you to read the relevant prior=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> work (many pointers were given)<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; =3DA0
> >>>&gt;&gt;Only 1 point=
> >>> >>er was given (by Jon Crowcroft), it=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> is not relevant.<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;&gt; it is exactly
> >>>relevant.<br><=
> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;in the broader sense of whether
> >>>this thread=
> >>> >> has been, or has any=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>> hope of<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;being, constructive, it was not
> >>>relevant...=
> >>> >><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;d/<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Dave Crocker<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0Brandenburg
> >>>InternetWorking<br>=
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt; =3DA0<a href=3D3D"<a
> >>>href=3D"http:=
> >>> >>//bbiw.net" target=3D"_blank">http://bbiw.net</a>"
> >>>target=3D3D"_b=
> >>> >>lank"><a href=3D"http://bbiw.net"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">bbiw.net</a><=
> >>> >>;/a><b=3D<br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>r><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>></div></div>=3DA0cheers<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><span><font
> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>=
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3DA0 =3DA0jon<br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br&=
> >>> >>gt;<br clear=3D3D"all"><span
> >>>class=3D3D"HOEnZ=3D<br=
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>=A0>>b"><font
> >>>color=3D3D"#888888"><br>-=
> >>> >>- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s" tar=
> >>> >>get=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-s</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://cience.org"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">cience.org</a>&q=
> >>> >>uot; target=3D3D"_blank"><a
> >>>href=3D"http://www.content-based-s=
> >>> >>cience.org"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-based-science.org</a></=
> >>> >>a><br><=3D<br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>>br><br>
> >>>
> >>=A0>></font></span></blockquote></div><br>
> >>> >>=A0>></blockquote></div><br><br
> >>>clear=3D3D"=
> >>> >>all"><br>-- <br><a href=3D3D"<a
> >>>href=3D"http://=
> >>> >>www.c" target=3D"_blank">http://www.c</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://ontent-based-science.org"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">on=
> >>> >>tent-based-science.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=
> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-scienc"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.content-b=
> >>> >>ased-scienc</a>=3D<br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://e.org"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">e.org</a></a>&l=
> >>> >>t;br><br><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--20cf307f39aa2712b204ca091b8d--<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0cheers<br>
> >>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>--
> <br><a href=
> >>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> >>>target=3D"_blank">http://www.cont=
> >>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--f46d04339cae83774704ca0aaa28--
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>> jon
> >>
>
> cheers
>
> jon
>
>
--
http://www.content-based-science.org
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