[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Pars Mutaf
pars.mutaf at gmail.com
Thu Sep 20 03:14:10 PDT 2012
OK see, where there was a problem:
http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/
It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on
MANET seriously?
London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down:
http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html
On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft
<Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> you give examples where it does work - so what?
>
> counter examples:
> both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets
> in indonesia and japan.
> in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube,
> for 7 hours no cell net worked at all.
>
> you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a
> disaster backup net. I can give you many
>
> you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual.
>
> In missive <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co=
> 0PA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> s Mutaf typed:
>
> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0
> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>
> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time.
> >>
> >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of
> disaster.
> >>See for example:
> >>
> >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144
> >>
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >>
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages
> >>
> >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more
> robust
> >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...
> >>
> >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.
> >>
> >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>
> >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one
> songle
> >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your
> incorrect
> >>> views about disasters and about our networks.
> >>>
> >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.
> >>> 1. how many do you need
> >>> 2. what is their cost
> >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation
> >>> 4. how long do their power sources last
> >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance
> >>> 6. how often are they deployed?
> >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g.
> >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)
> >>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> by the way, you said MANET again -
> >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or
> >>> more to do DTN -
> >>> please stop repeateing incorrect
> >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say.
> >>>
> >>> you are confused.
> >>>
> >>> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=
> >>> Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>>
> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>
> >>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
> >>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that -
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> One is to build standby cell power
> >>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
> >>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
> >>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were)
> >>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old
> >>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF
> (fail
> >>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) -
> >>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
> >>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Cool.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
> >>> parallel in
> >>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get
> >>> either of
> >>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
> model
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> However, its beside the point:
> >>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone
> want
> >>> to
> >>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mnemonic)...
> >>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_
> >>> >>> who have safe water, dry
> >>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>No I don't do this mistake.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood
> too***.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>> What people building DTNs
> >>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
> >>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a
> >>> >>> self organising set of people to
> >>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication,
> >>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along
> >>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
> >>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have
> >>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
> >>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for).
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail
> lists
> >>> -
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
> >>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
> >>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's
> obviously
> >>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
> >>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
> >>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing
> >>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Its been, er, virtual...
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=
> >>> >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
> >>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise MANET
> will
> >>> only
> >>> >>> be
> >>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to
> do. I
> >>> would
> >>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for
> >>> trying to
> >>> >>> get
> >>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume
> energy
> >>> for
> >>> >>> others
> >>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they
> >>> should do.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your broken
> leg,
> >>> >>> request
> >>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things,
> but I
> >>> am not
> >>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone.
> Some
> >>> people
> >>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my
> >>> pocket.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>Therefore:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will
> >>> broadcast
> >>> >>> an
> >>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about
> education.
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>===
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust
> enough,
> >>> we may
> >>> >>> not
> >>> >>> >>even need a balloon:
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
> >>> >>> >>
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--
> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>> >>
> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35
> AM,
> >>> Jon Cr=
> >>> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"=
> >>> >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
> >>> wrote:<br><blo=
> >>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
> >>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>One is to build standby cell power<br>
> >>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
> >>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
> >>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
> >>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
> >>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF
> (fail<br>
> >>> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
> >>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
> >>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
> >>> fact...<br></blockq=
> >>> >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote
> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
> >>> rgb(204,204,204)=
> >>> >>;padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
> >>> parallel in=
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get
> >>> either =
> >>> >>of<br>
> >>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
> model<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>However, its beside the point:<br>
> >>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone
> want
> >>> to<br=
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mnemonic)...<br>
> >>> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_<br>
> >>> >>who have safe water, dry<br>
> >>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
> >>> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No =
> >>> >>I don't do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can serve
> for
> >>> the =
> >>> >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing
> but a
> >>> res=
> >>> >>earch exercise to me. <br>
> >>> >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.
> >>> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot=
> >>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
> >>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
> >>> >>
> >>> >>What people building DTNs<br>
> >>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
> >>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
> >>> >>self organising set of people to<br>
> >>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
> >>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
> >>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br>
> >>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br>
> >>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
> >>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail
> >>> lists -=
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br>
> >>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br>
> >>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's
> >>> obviously<br=
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then,
> though).<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br>
> >>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br>
> >>> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
> >>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
> >>> >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
> >>> target=3D"_blank">=
> >>> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>Its been, er, virtual...<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
> >>> yf18msEv0dg-=
> >>> >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
> >>> </a>>,=
> >>> >> Par<br>
> >>> >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>> >><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >>> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise
> >>> MANET wi=
> >>> >>ll only be<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what
> to
> >>> do. I=
> >>> >> would<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my
> battery
> >>> for tr=
> >>> >>ying to get<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to
> consume
> >>> energy=
> >>> >> for others<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what
> >>> they sh=
> >>> >>ould do.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your
> >>> broken le=
> >>> >>g, request<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other
> things,
> >>> but =
> >>> >>I am not<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can
> >>> provide?<br=
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach
> anyone.
> >>> Some =
> >>> >>people<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have
> this
> >>> in my=
> >>> >> pocket.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>Therefore:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It
> >>> will br=
> >>> >>oadcast an<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about
> >>> education.<=
> >>> >>br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust
> >>> enough,=
> >>> >> we may not<br>
> >>> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:<br>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"
> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=
> >>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
> >>> target=3D=
> >>> >>"_blank">
> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=
> >>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>=A0>><br>
> >>> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> >>> href=3D"=
> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> >>> http://www.content-=
> >>> >>based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>>
> >>> jon
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
> >>
> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0
> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >>
> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by
> current p=
> >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for
> example: <=
> >>br><br><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144">
> http://www=
> >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br>
> >><a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon=
> >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
> target=3D"_blank">ht=
> >>tp://
> www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios=
> >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
> >><a href=3D"
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph=
> >>ones-major-disasters-messages">
> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine=
> >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you dot
> tru=
> >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you
> agreed=
> >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br>
> >><br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps:
> DTN, I =
> >>did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On
> Thu, Se=
> >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
> href=3D"mail=
> >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
> >></a>></span> wrote:<br>
> >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
> .8ex;border-left:1p=
> >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do your
> pla=
> >>n? you havn't answered one songle<br>
> >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your
> incorrect<br=
> >>>
> >>views about disasters and about our networks.<br>
> >><br>
> >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br>
> >>1. how many do you need<br>
> >>2. what is their cost<br>
> >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br>
> >>4. how long do their power sources last<br>
> >>5. what are your plans for maintenance<br>
> >>6. how often are they deployed?<br>
> >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br>
> >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br>
> >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >>by the way, you said MANET again -<br>
> >>I said we modified this 12 years back or<br>
> >>more to do DTN -<br>
> >>please stop repeateing incorrect<br>
> >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br>
> >><br>
> >>you are confused.<br>
> >><br>
> >>In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
> Oqi__T9T0GEcr=
> >>1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com
> </a>>=
> >>, Par<br>
> >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> One is to build standby cell power<br>
> >>=A0>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
> >>=A0>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
> >>=A0>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
> >>=A0>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
> >>=A0>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a
> 100years M=
> >>TBF (fail<br>
> >>=A0>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
> >>=A0>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
> >>=A0>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
> fac=
> >>t...<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>Cool.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one
> whic=
> >>h is parallel in<br>
> >>=A0>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure
> out ho=
> >>w to get either of<br>
> >>=A0>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some
> busines=
> >>s model<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> However, its beside the point:<br>
> >>=A0>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a
> disaster=
> >> zone want to<br>
> >>=A0>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mne=
> >>monic)...<br>
> >>=A0>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people
> _nea=
> >>rby_<br>
> >>=A0>>> who have safe water, dry<br>
> >>=A0>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>No I don't do this mistake.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>***The base station can serve for the calling the
> neighborhood t=
> >>oo***.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> What people building DTNs<br>
> >>=A0>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
> >>=A0>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
> >>=A0>>> self organising set of people to<br>
> >>=A0>>> self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
> >>=A0>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
> >>=A0>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later
> usually<br>
> >>=A0>>> (because coming along right away requires you to
> have<br>
> >>=A0>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
> >>=A0>>> go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies
> present=
> >> on mail lists -<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own
> error=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online
> fora=
> >> to<br>
> >>=A0>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff -
> that=
> >>9;s obviously<br>
> >>=A0>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left
> then, t=
> >>hough).<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each
> other=
> >>,<br>
> >>=A0>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a
> bit=
> >><br>
> >>=A0>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
> >>=A0>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
> ta=
> >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> Its been, er, virtual...<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">y=
> >>f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the
> infrastructure, ot=
> >>herwise MANET will only<br>
> >>=A0>>> be<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have
> no id=
> >>ea what to do. I would<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>rather wait for real help instead of
> consuming m=
> >>y battery for trying to<br>
> >>=A0>>> get<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This means that users really have no
> incentive t=
> >>o consume energy for<br>
> >>=A0>>> others<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And
> this=
> >> is what they should do.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You can of course try to reach your
> neighbors fo=
> >>r your broken leg,<br>
> >>=A0>>> request<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors
> or ot=
> >>her things, but I am not<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help
> they=
> >> can provide?<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot
> rea=
> >>ch anyone. Some people<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I
> don't=
> >> have this in my pocket.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Therefore:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as
> poss=
> >>ible. It will broadcast<br>
> >>=A0>>> an<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>address which everyone can call for real
> help.<b=
> >>r>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It
> is a=
> >>bout education.<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network
> is no=
> >>t robust enough, we may<br>
> >>=A0>>> not<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>>even need a balloon:<br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new=
> >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
> targ=
> >>et=3D"_blank">
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p=
> >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
> >>
> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >></div></div>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>Content-Type: text/html;
> charset=3DISO-8859-1<=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >></div>=A0>><br><br><div
> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&qu=
> >>ot;>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>owcroft <span
> dir=3D3D"ltr">&a=
> >>mp;lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac=
> >>.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
> Jon.Crowcrof=
> >>t at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
> </a></a>&gt;</span&g=
> >>t; wrote:<br><blo=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ckquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D"margin=
> >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >></div>=A0>>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>One is to build standby cell power<br><br>
> >>=A0>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br>
> >>=A0>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br>
> >>=A0>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br>
> >>=A0>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br>
> >>=A0>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years
> MTBF (=
> >>fail<br><br>
> >>=A0>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br>
> >>=A0>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br>
> >>=A0>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
> fact...&=
> >>lt;br></blockq=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool.
> <br=
> >>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
> 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
> >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which
> is =
> >>parallel in=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure out
> how=
> >> to get either =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>of<br><br>
> >>=A0>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
> mod=
> >>el<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>However, its beside the point:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster
> zone=
> >> want to<br=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
> Mnemonic=
> >>)...<br><br>
> >>=A0>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people
> _near=
> >>by_<br><br>
> >>=A0>>who have safe water, dry<br><br>
> >>=A0>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
> -<br></blo=
> >>ckquote><div><br>No =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The
> base=
> >> station can serve for the =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET
> looks=
> >> like nothing but a res=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>earch exercise to me. <br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.
> <br><=
> >>br><br>=3DA0</div><blockquot=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>e class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
> style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0=
> >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>What people building DTNs<br><br>
> >>=A0>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting
> incorrectly)<br><br=
> >>>
> >>=A0>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br>
> >>=A0>>self organising set of people to<br><br>
> >>=A0>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br>
> >>=A0>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br>
> >>=A0>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later
> usually<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>(because coming along right away requires you to
> have<br><=
> >>br>
> >>=A0>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br>
> >>=A0>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies
> present =
> >>on mail lists -=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own
> error<b=
> >>r><br>
> >>=A0>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora
> to&l=
> >>t;br><br>
> >>=A0>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff -
> that&#39=
> >>;s obviously<br=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left
> then, th=
> >>ough).<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each
> other,<=
> >>br><br>
> >>=A0>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a
> bit<b=
> >>r><br>
> >>=A0>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39;
> playing<br><br>
> >>=A0>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
> >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6=
> >>ZJjt9lg</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
> targe=
> >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
> </a></a>&l=
> >>t;br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>Its been, er, virtual...<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D<a
> href=3D=
> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
> ">4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.g=
> >>mail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.=
> >>com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
> </a></a>&gt;,=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> Par<br><br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
> >>=A0>><br><br>
>
> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type:
> text/plain;=
> >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
> >></div>=A0>><div class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><div
> class=3D3D=
> >>"h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad
> idea:<br&=
> >>gt;<br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the
> infrastructur=
> >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ll only be<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who
> have =
> >>no idea what to do. I=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> would<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of
> consum=
> >>ing my battery for tr=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ying to get<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional
> strangers.<br=
> >>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no
> incent=
> >>ive to consume energy=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> for others<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real help.
> And=
> >> this is what they sh=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>ould do.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your
> neighbo=
> >>rs for your broken le=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>g, request<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional
> neighbors =
> >>or other things, but =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>I am not<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real
> help=
> >> they can provide?<br=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I
> canno=
> >>t reach anyone. Some =3D<br>
> >>=A0>>people<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I
> don&=
> >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> pocket.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as
> fast as=
> >> possible. It will br=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>oadcast an<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for
> real he=
> >>lp.<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking
> problem. It=
> >> is about education.<=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular
> network =
> >>is not robust enough,=3D<br>
> >>=A0>> we may not<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
> http://www.=
> >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www=
> >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a><br>
>
> >>=A0>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/=
> >>" target=3D3D=3D<br>
> >>=A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D"
> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b=
> >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.trust.=
> >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D</a><br>
>
> >>=A0>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><=
> >>;br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>
> >>=A0>></div></div></blockquote></div><br>=
> >>;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=3D3D=
> >>"=3D<br>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blan=
> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"
> target=3D3D"_blank&q=
> >>uot;><a href=3D"http://www.content-" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.conten=
> >>t-</a>=3D<br>
> >>
> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://based-science.org"
> target=3D"_blank">based-sci=
> >>ence.org</a></a><br><br><br>
> >>=A0>><br>
> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br>
> >><br>
> >>=A0cheers<br>
> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
> >><br>
> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
> href=
> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
> http://www.cont=
> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
> >>
> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0--
>
> cheers
>
> jon
>
>
--
http://www.content-based-science.org
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