[e2e] Discrete IP - retake
Georgia Sakellari
g.sakellari at imperial.ac.uk
Thu Sep 20 05:09:26 PDT 2012
Dear all,
I have been following this discussion with great interest and I would like
to invite you all to submit to this relevant workshop I am co-organising so
that we can discuss all this in person. It will definitely be an
interesting, to say the least, session.
http://san.ee.ic.ac.uk/pernem2013/
Kind regards,
Georgia
On Sep 20, 2012 12:52 PM, "Pars Mutaf" <pars.mutaf at gmail.com> wrote:
> OK see, where there was a problem:
>
>
> http://paidcontent.org/2011/03/11/419-massive-japan-quaketsunami-hobbles-mobile-voice-but-data-holds-fast/
>
> It still works. The problem was congestion apparently. You want to rely on
> MANET seriously?
>
> London 7/7 doesn't count, because police shut it down:
>
>
> http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/Police-shut-mobile-phone-network-London-7-7-bombings-inquest-hears/story-12215599-detail/story.html
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Jon Crowcroft <
> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> you give examples where it does work - so what?
>>
>> counter examples:
>> both recent tsunami in pacfic took out comms nets
>> in indonesia and japan.
>> in 7/7 in london after the bombs on the bus/tube,
>> for 7 hours no cell net worked at all.
>>
>> you only need 1 where it doesn't to have a reuirement for a
>> disaster backup net. I can give you many
>>
>> you havnt answered ANY of my questions. as usual.
>>
>> In missive <CACQuieaHQpQT_tsp9Lzp0Thw42U5xRZ1xbhHDM4Yi+G8co=
>> 0PA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>> s Mutaf typed:
>>
>> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0
>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>
>> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time.
>> >>
>> >>Well by current practice cellular networks work well in case of
>> disaster.
>> >>See for example:
>> >>
>> >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144
>> >>
>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>> >>
>> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages
>> >>
>> >>If you dot trust them, we can make the *existing* base stations more
>> robust
>> >>as you agreed. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar...
>> >>
>> >>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work.
>> >>
>> >>ps: DTN, I did not question yet.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> sorry, where's your funds to do your plan? you havn't answered one
>> songle
>> >>> objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your
>> incorrect
>> >>> views about disasters and about our networks.
>> >>>
>> >>> so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.
>> >>> 1. how many do you need
>> >>> 2. what is their cost
>> >>> 3. how are you doing spectrum allocation
>> >>> 4. how long do their power sources last
>> >>> 5. what are your plans for maintenance
>> >>> 6. how often are they deployed?
>> >>> what if you get repeated disasters E.g.
>> >>> hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)
>> >>> 7. what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> by the way, you said MANET again -
>> >>> I said we modified this 12 years back or
>> >>> more to do DTN -
>> >>> please stop repeateing incorrect
>> >>> ideas YOU have that I didnt say.
>> >>>
>> >>> you are confused.
>> >>>
>> >>> In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=
>> >>> Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>> >>>
>> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft
>> >>> >><Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk>wrote:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> You want to build a standby infrastructure
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> There are lots of ways to do that -
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> One is to build standby cell power
>> >>> >>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight
>> >>> >>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected
>> >>> >>> the way the generators at fukushima were)
>> >>> >>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old
>> >>> >>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF
>> (fail
>> >>> >>> defined as >50% of lines down) -
>> >>> >>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar
>> >>> >>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in fact...
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>Cool.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
>> >>> parallel in
>> >>> >>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to get
>> >>> either of
>> >>> >>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
>> model
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> However, its beside the point:
>> >>> >>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster
>> zone want
>> >>> to
>> >>> >>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
>> Mnemonic)...
>> >>> >>> they don't. what they want is to find other people _nearby_
>> >>> >>> who have safe water, dry
>> >>> >>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>No I don't do this mistake.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>***The base station can serve for the calling the neighborhood
>> too***.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>It is not needed as you admitted above.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> What people building DTNs
>> >>> >>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)
>> >>> >>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a
>> >>> >>> self organising set of people to
>> >>> >>> self organise opportunistic communication,
>> >>> >>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along
>> >>> >>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually
>> >>> >>> (because coming along right away requires you to have
>> >>> >>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -
>> >>> >>> go figure out how get that paid for).
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on mail
>> lists
>> >>> -
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error
>> >>> >>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to
>> >>> >>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's
>> obviously
>> >>> >>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then, though).
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,
>> >>> >>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit
>> >>> >>> while listening to 'Blood' playing
>> >>> >>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher
>> >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9g6ZJjt9lg
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> Its been, er, virtual...
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=
>> >>> >>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com>, Par
>> >>> >>> s Mutaf typed:
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> >>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8
>> >>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise
>> MANET will
>> >>> only
>> >>> >>> be
>> >>> >>> >>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea what to
>> do. I
>> >>> would
>> >>> >>> >>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my battery for
>> >>> trying to
>> >>> >>> get
>> >>> >>> >>help from non-professional strangers.
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>This means that users really have no incentive to consume
>> energy
>> >>> for
>> >>> >>> others
>> >>> >>> >>because they are waiting for real help. And this is what they
>> >>> should do.
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your
>> broken leg,
>> >>> >>> request
>> >>> >>> >>water from your non-professional neighbors or other things,
>> but I
>> >>> am not
>> >>> >>> >>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can provide?
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach anyone.
>> Some
>> >>> people
>> >>> >>> >>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have this in my
>> >>> pocket.
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>Therefore:
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible. It will
>> >>> broadcast
>> >>> >>> an
>> >>> >>> >>address which everyone can call for real help.
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>This is really not a networking problem. It is about
>> education.
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>===
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not robust
>> enough,
>> >>> we may
>> >>> >>> not
>> >>> >>> >>even need a balloon:
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>>
>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/
>> >>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>--
>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b
>> >>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35
>> AM,
>> >>> Jon Cr=
>> >>> >>owcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:
>> >>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk"=
>> >>> >> target=3D"_blank">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>></span>
>> >>> wrote:<br><blo=
>> >>> >>ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
>> >>> .8ex;border-left:1px #c=
>> >>> >>cc solid;padding-left:1ex">
>> >>> >>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>One is to build standby cell power<br>
>> >>> >>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>> >>> >>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>> >>> >>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>> >>> >>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>> >>> >>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years MTBF
>> (fail<br>
>> >>> >>defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
>> >>> >>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>> >>> >>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
>> >>> fact...<br></blockq=
>> >>> >>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool. <br>=A0</div><blockquote
>> >>> class=3D"gmail_quot=
>> >>> >>e" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
>> >>> rgb(204,204,204)=
>> >>> >>;padding-left:1ex">
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one which is
>> >>> parallel in=
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>technology - as you've proposed....and go figure out how to
>> get
>> >>> either =
>> >>> >>of<br>
>> >>> >>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some business
>> model<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>However, its beside the point:<br>
>> >>> >>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster zone
>> want
>> >>> to<br=
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
>> Mnemonic)...<br>
>> >>> >>they don't. what they want is to find other people
>> _nearby_<br>
>> >>> >>who have safe water, dry<br>
>> >>> >>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
>> >>> -<br></blockquote><div><br>No =
>> >>> >>I don't do this mistake. <br><br>***The base station can
>> serve for
>> >>> the =
>> >>> >>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET looks like nothing
>> but a
>> >>> res=
>> >>> >>earch exercise to me. <br>
>> >>> >><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.
>> >>> <br><br><br>=A0</div><blockquot=
>> >>> >>e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>> >>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=
>> >>> >>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>What people building DTNs<br>
>> >>> >>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
>> >>> >>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>> >>> >>self organising set of people to<br>
>> >>> >>self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>> >>> >>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>> >>> >>and fixes the infrastructure some while later usually<br>
>> >>> >>(because coming along right away requires you to have<br>
>> >>> >>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>> >>> >>go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies present on
>> mail
>> >>> lists -=
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own error<br>
>> >>> >>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora to<br>
>> >>> >>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff - that's
>> >>> obviously<br=
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>not the point any more. (lord knows what's left then,
>> though).<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each other,<br>
>> >>> >>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a bit<br>
>> >>> >>while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
>> >>> >>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>> >>> >><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
>> >>> target=3D"_blank">=
>> >>> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
>> >>> yf18msEv0dg-=
>> >>> >>4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">
>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
>> >>> </a>>,=
>> >>> >> Par<br>
>> >>> >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
>> >>> >><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>> >>> >><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the infrastructure, otherwise
>> >>> MANET wi=
>> >>> >>ll only be<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have no idea
>> what to
>> >>> do. I=
>> >>> >> would<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>rather wait for real help instead of consuming my
>> battery
>> >>> for tr=
>> >>> >>ying to get<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>This means that users really have no incentive to
>> consume
>> >>> energy=
>> >>> >> for others<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And this is
>> what
>> >>> they sh=
>> >>> >>ould do.<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>You can of course try to reach your neighbors for your
>> >>> broken le=
>> >>> >>g, request<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors or other
>> things,
>> >>> but =
>> >>> >>I am not<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help they can
>> >>> provide?<br=
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I cannot reach
>> anyone.
>> >>> Some =
>> >>> >>people<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I don't have
>> this
>> >>> in my=
>> >>> >> pocket.<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>Therefore:<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as possible.
>> It
>> >>> will br=
>> >>> >>oadcast an<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>address which everyone can call for real help.<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It is about
>> >>> education.<=
>> >>> >>br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network is not
>> robust
>> >>> enough,=
>> >>> >> we may not<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>>even need a balloon:<br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"
>> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=
>> >>> >>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
>> >>> target=3D=
>> >>> >>"_blank">
>> >>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=
>> >>> >>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>> >></div></div></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
>> >>> href=3D"=
>> >>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>> >>> http://www.content-=
>> >>> >>based-science.org</a><br><br>
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--
>> >>>
>> >>> cheers
>> >>>
>> >>> jon
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>http://www.content-based-science.org
>> >>
>> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0
>> >>Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
>> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> >>
>> >>I guess you forgot to include the list this time. <br><br>Well by
>> current p=
>> >>ractice cellular networks work well in case of disaster. See for
>> example: <=
>> >>br><br><a href=3D"http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144">
>> http://www=
>> >>.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-14761144</a><br>
>> >><a href=3D"
>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phon=
>> >>es-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
>> target=3D"_blank">ht=
>> >>tp://
>> www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones-and-radios=
>> >>-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>> >><a href=3D"
>> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/business/29528908_1_cellph=
>> >>ones-major-disasters-messages">
>> http://articles.boston.com/2011-05-10/busine=
>> >>ss/29528908_1_cellphones-major-disasters-messages</a><br><br>If you
>> dot tru=
>> >>st them, we can make the *existing* base stations more robust as you
>> agreed=
>> >>. Connect them to satellite and add batteries and solar... <br>
>> >><br>Never rely on things like MANET, they may not work. <br><br>ps:
>> DTN, I =
>> >>did not question yet. <br><br><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On
>> Thu, Se=
>> >>p 20, 2012 at 11:36 AM, Jon Crowcroft <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a
>> href=3D"mail=
>> >>to:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">
>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk=
>> >></a>></span> wrote:<br>
>> >><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
>> .8ex;border-left:1p=
>> >>x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">sorry, where's your funds to do
>> your pla=
>> >>n? you havn't answered one songle<br>
>> >>objection to your idea at all and you just keep repeating your
>> incorrect<br=
>> >>>
>> >>views about disasters and about our networks.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>so you want a ballon+tech at every possible disaster area.<br>
>> >>1. how many do you need<br>
>> >>2. what is their cost<br>
>> >>3. how are you doing spectrum allocation<br>
>> >>4. how long do their power sources last<br>
>> >>5. what are your plans for maintenance<br>
>> >>6. how often are they deployed?<br>
>> >>what if you get repeated disasters E.g.<br>
>> >>hurricans happen repeatedly in the carribean)<br>
>> >>7. =A0what are your sources of hydrogen (or helium) for the ballons<br>
>> >><br>
>> >><br>
>> >>by the way, you said MANET again -<br>
>> >>I said we modified this 12 years back or<br>
>> >>more to do DTN -<br>
>> >>please stop repeateing incorrect<br>
>> >>ideas YOU have that I didnt say.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>you are confused.<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>In missive <CACQuieZvvX+PS5p6rmPFNe6k8=3D<a href=3D"mailto:
>> Oqi__T9T0GEcr=
>> >>1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com">Oqi__T9T0GEcr1B8tjksp2vw at mail.gmail.com
>> </a>>=
>> >>, Par<br>
>> >>s Mutaf typed:<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>> >>=A0>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1<br>
>> >><div><div class=3D"h5">=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Crowcroft<br>
>> >>=A0>><<a href=3D"mailto:Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>> ">Jon.Crowcroft@=
>> >>cl.cam.ac.uk</a>>wrote:<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> You want to build a standby infrastructure<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> There are lots of ways to do that -<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> One is to build standby cell power<br>
>> >>=A0>>> (solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br>
>> >>=A0>>> or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br>
>> >>=A0>>> the way the generators at fukushima were)<br>
>> >>=A0>>> or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br>
>> >>=A0>>> phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a
>> 100years M=
>> >>TBF (fail<br>
>> >>=A0>>> defined as >50% of lines down) -<br>
>> >>=A0>>> Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br>
>> >>=A0>>> powered base stations with satellite uplinks already
>> in fac=
>> >>t...<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>Cool.<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one
>> whic=
>> >>h is parallel in<br>
>> >>=A0>>> technology - as you've proposed....and go figure
>> out ho=
>> >>w to get either of<br>
>> >>=A0>>> those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some
>> busines=
>> >>s model<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> However, its beside the point:<br>
>> >>=A0>>> The mistake you make is that you think people in a
>> disaster=
>> >> zone want to<br>
>> >>=A0>>> make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in
>> Johnny Mne=
>> >>monic)...<br>
>> >>=A0>>> they don't. what they want is to find other people
>> _nea=
>> >>rby_<br>
>> >>=A0>>> who have safe water, dry<br>
>> >>=A0>>> clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc -<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>No I don't do this mistake.<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>***The base station can serve for the calling the
>> neighborhood t=
>> >>oo***.<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>MANET looks like nothing but a research exercise to me.<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>It is not needed as you admitted above.<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> What people building DTNs<br>
>> >>=A0>>> (not just MANETs as you keep insisting incorrectly)<br>
>> >>=A0>>> want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br>
>> >>=A0>>> self organising set of people to<br>
>> >>=A0>>> self organise opportunistic communication,<br>
>> >>=A0>>> UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br>
>> >>=A0>>> and fixes the infrastructure some while later
>> usually<br>
>> >>=A0>>> (because coming along right away requires you to
>> have<br>
>> >>=A0>>> massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br>
>> >>=A0>>> go figure out how get that paid for).<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> Anyhow I'd forgotten about the dual pathologies
>> present=
>> >> on mail lists -<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> One has already been alluded to - the other is my own
>> error=
>> >><br>
>> >>=A0>>> in assuming that it was still my duty in public online
>> fora=
>> >> to<br>
>> >>=A0>>> discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff -
>> that=
>> >>9;s obviously<br>
>> >>=A0>>> not the point any more. (lord knows what's left
>> then, t=
>> >>hough).<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each
>> other=
>> >>,<br>
>> >>=A0>>> so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for
>> a bit=
>> >><br>
>> >>=A0>>> while listening to 'Blood' playing<br>
>> >>=A0>>> Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br>
>> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" ta=
>> >>rget=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg</a><br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> Its been, er, virtual...<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> In missive <CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"mailto:
>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com">y=
>> >>f18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com</a>>, Par<br>
>> >>=A0>>> s Mutaf typed:<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Content-Type: text/plain;
>> charset=3DISO-8859-1<b=
>> >>r>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>In summary, why MANET is a bad idea:<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>1. We need to reconstruct the
>> infrastructure, ot=
>> >>herwise MANET will only<br>
>> >>=A0>>> be<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>useful to talk to my neighborhood who have
>> no id=
>> >>ea what to do. I would<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>rather wait for real help instead of
>> consuming m=
>> >>y battery for trying to<br>
>> >>=A0>>> get<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>help from non-professional strangers.<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This means that users really have no
>> incentive t=
>> >>o consume energy for<br>
>> >>=A0>>> others<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>because they are waiting for real help. And
>> this=
>> >> is what they should do.<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>You can of course try to reach your
>> neighbors fo=
>> >>r your broken leg,<br>
>> >>=A0>>> request<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>water from your non-professional neighbors
>> or ot=
>> >>her things, but I am not<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>sure if this is a good idea. What real help
>> they=
>> >> can provide?<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>2. If I am too far from the network I
>> cannot rea=
>> >>ch anyone. Some people<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>suggested using long range wifi, but I
>> don't=
>> >> have this in my pocket.<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>Therefore:<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>The balloons should be installed as fast as
>> poss=
>> >>ible. It will broadcast<br>
>> >>=A0>>> an<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>address which everyone can call for real
>> help.<b=
>> >>r>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>This is really not a networking problem. It
>> is a=
>> >>bout education.<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>=3D=3D=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>I am also not sure if the cellular network
>> is no=
>> >>t robust enough, we may<br>
>> >>=A0>>> not<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>>even need a balloon:<br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>> <a href=3D"
>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-new=
>> >>s-blog/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/"
>> targ=
>> >>et=3D"_blank">
>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-p=
>> >>hones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><br>
>> >>
>> >>=A0>>> =A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>--<br>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>> target=3D"_blan=
>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >></div></div>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b<br>
>> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>Content-Type: text/html;
>> charset=3DISO-8859-1<=
>> >>br>
>> >>=A0>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable<br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >></div>=A0>><br><br><div
>> class=3D3D"gmail_quote&qu=
>> >>ot;>On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 10:35 AM, Jon Cr=3D<br>
>> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>owcroft <span
>> dir=3D3D"ltr">&a=
>> >>mp;lt;<a href=3D3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:
>> Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac=
>> >>.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk</a>"=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>> target=3D3D"_blank"><a href=3D"mailto:
>> Jon.Crowcrof=
>> >>t at cl.cam.ac.uk">Jon.Crowcroft at cl.cam.ac.uk
>> </a></a>&gt;</span&g=
>> >>t; wrote:<br><blo=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>ckquote class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>> style=3D3D"margin=
>> >>:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>cc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>> >></div>=A0>>Ah - I see the source of confusion.<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>You want to build a standby infrastructure<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>There are lots of ways to do that -<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>One is to build standby cell power<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>(solar, diesel - so long as you have sunlight<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>or your dieel isnt flooded or disconnected<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>the way the generators at fukushima were)<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>or have huge racks of batteries the way old<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>phone exchanges did, which were engineered for a 100years
>> MTBF (=
>> >>fail<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>defined as &gt;50% of lines down) -<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>Indeed, the ITU charity organisation has solar<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>powered base stations with satellite uplinks already in
>> fact...&=
>> >>lt;br></blockq=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>uote><div></div><div><br>Cool.
>> <br=
>> >>>=3DA0</div><blockquote class=3D3D"gmail_quot=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>e" style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0pt 0pt
>> 0.8ex;border-left:1px=
>> >> solid rgb(204,204,204)=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>;padding-left:1ex"><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>Or you can build an +alternative+ infrastructure - one
>> which is =
>> >>parallel in=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>technology - as you&#39;ve proposed....and go figure
>> out how=
>> >> to get either =3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>of<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>those paid for ....you need a lot of stuff and some
>> business mod=
>> >>el<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>However, its beside the point:<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>The mistake you make is that you think people in a disaster
>> zone=
>> >> want to<br=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>make long haul phone calls (like Keanu Reeves in Johnny
>> Mnemonic=
>> >>)...<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>they don&#39;t. what they want is to find other people
>> _near=
>> >>by_<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>who have safe water, dry<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>clothes, medicine and expterise, shelter etc
>> -<br></blo=
>> >>ckquote><div><br>No =3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>I don&#39;t do this mistake. <br><br>***The
>> base=
>> >> station can serve for the =3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>calling the neighborhood too***. <br><br>MANET
>> looks=
>> >> like nothing but a res=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>earch exercise to me. <br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>It is not needed as you admitted above.
>> <br><=
>> >>br><br>=3DA0</div><blockquot=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>e class=3D3D"gmail_quote"
>> style=3D3D"margin:0pt 0=
>> >>pt 0pt 0.8ex;border-left:1px s=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>olid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>What people building DTNs<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>(not just MANETs as you keep insisting
>> incorrectly)<br><br=
>> >>>
>> >>=A0>>want to do is to provide _something_ for a<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>self organising set of people to<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>self organise opportunistic communication,<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>UNTIL someone (else) comes along<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>and fixes the infrastructure some while later
>> usually<br><=
>> >>br>
>> >>=A0>>(because coming along right away requires you to
>> have<br><=
>> >>br>
>> >>=A0>>massive rescue teams on standby 24*7 -<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>go figure out how get that paid for).<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>Anyhow I&#39;d forgotten about the dual pathologies
>> present =
>> >>on mail lists -=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>One has already been alluded to - the other is my own
>> error<b=
>> >>r><br>
>> >>=A0>>in assuming that it was still my duty in public online fora
>> to&l=
>> >>t;br><br>
>> >>=A0>>discuss, explain, reach understanding about stuff -
>> that&#39=
>> >>;s obviously<br=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>not the point any more. (lord knows what&#39;s left
>> then, th=
>> >>ough).<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>of course, the pathological behaviours depend on each
>> other,<=
>> >>br><br>
>> >>=A0>>so I will now go away and meditate on my bad ways for a
>> bit<b=
>> >>r><br>
>> >>=A0>>while listening to &#39;Blood&#39;
>> playing<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>Jazz is the teacher, funk is the preacher<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
>> >>=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg" target=3D"_blank">
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6=
>> >>ZJjt9lg</a>" target=3D3D"_blank">=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg"
>> targe=
>> >>t=3D"_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D3Dy9g6ZJjt9lg
>> </a></a>&l=
>> >>t;br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>Its been, er, virtual...<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>> >>=A0>>In missive &lt;CACQuieaSzr6RMz9V57JdQwERYF=3D3D<a
>> href=3D=
>> >>3D"mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:yf18msEv0dg-">yf18msEv0dg-</a>=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"mailto:4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
>> ">4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.g=
>> >>mail.com</a>"><a href=3D"mailto:
>> yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.=
>> >>com">yf18msEv0dg-4rs6t8_OHCA at mail.gmail.com
>> </a></a>&gt;,=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>> Par<br><br>
>> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>s Mutaf typed:<br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br><br>
>>
>> >></div>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;--bcaec51a8b864356cb04ca1cfac8<br&=
>> >>gt;<br>
>> >><div class=3D"im">=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Content-Type:
>> text/plain;=
>> >> charset=3D3DISO-8859-1<br><br>
>> >></div>=A0>><div class=3D3D"HOEnZb"><div
>> class=3D3D=
>> >>"h5">=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;In summary, why MANET is a bad
>> idea:<br&=
>> >>gt;<br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;1. We need to reconstruct the
>> infrastructur=
>> >>e, otherwise MANET wi=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>ll only be<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;useful to talk to my neighborhood who
>> have =
>> >>no idea what to do. I=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>> would<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;rather wait for real help instead of
>> consum=
>> >>ing my battery for tr=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>ying to get<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;help from non-professional
>> strangers.<br=
>> >>><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This means that users really have no
>> incent=
>> >>ive to consume energy=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>> for others<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;because they are waiting for real
>> help. And=
>> >> this is what they sh=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>ould do.<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;You can of course try to reach your
>> neighbo=
>> >>rs for your broken le=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>g, request<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;water from your non-professional
>> neighbors =
>> >>or other things, but =3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>I am not<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;sure if this is a good idea. What real
>> help=
>> >> they can provide?<br=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;2. If I am too far from the network I
>> canno=
>> >>t reach anyone. Some =3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>people<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;suggested using long range wifi, but I
>> don&=
>> >>amp;#39;t have this in my=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>> pocket.<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;Therefore:<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;The balloons should be installed as
>> fast as=
>> >> possible. It will br=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>oadcast an<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;address which everyone can call for
>> real he=
>> >>lp.<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;This is really not a networking
>> problem. It=
>> >> is about education.<=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;=3D3D=3D3D=3D3D<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;I am also not sure if the cellular
>> network =
>> >>is not robust enough,=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>> we may not<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;even need a balloon:<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<a href=3D3D"<a href=3D"
>> http://www.=
>> >>trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D" target=3D"_blank">
>> http://www=
>> >>.trust.org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blo=3D</a><br>
>>
>> >>=A0>>g/cell-phones-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/=
>> >>" target=3D3D=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>>"_blank"><a href=3D"
>> http://www.trust.org/alertnet/b=
>> >>logs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D" target=3D"_blank">
>> http://www.trust.=
>> >>org/alertnet/blogs/alertnet-news-blog/cell-phones=3D</a><br>
>>
>> >>=A0>>-and-radios-help-save-lives-after-haiti-earthquake/</a><=
>> >>;br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>=3DA0&gt;&gt;<br><br>
>>
>> >>=A0>></div></div></blockquote></div><br>=
>> >>;<br clear=3D3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
>> href=3D3D=
>> >>"=3D<br>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org"
>> target=3D"_blan=
>> >>k">http://www.content-based-science.org</a>"
>> target=3D3D"_blank&q=
>> >>uot;><a href=3D"http://www.content-" target=3D"_blank">
>> http://www.conten=
>> >>t-</a>=3D<br>
>> >>
>> >>=A0>><a href=3D"http://based-science.org"
>> target=3D"_blank">based-sci=
>> >>ence.org</a></a><br><br><br>
>> >>=A0>><br>
>> >>=A0>>--bcaec54ee6383410b704ca1d8b5b--<br>
>> >><br>
>> >>=A0cheers<br>
>> >><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br>
>> >>=A0 =A0jon<br>
>> >><br>
>> >></font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><a
>> href=
>> >>=3D"http://www.content-based-science.org" target=3D"_blank">
>> http://www.cont=
>> >>ent-based-science.org</a><br><br>
>> >>
>> >>--bcaec54ee6384492f804ca1edad0--
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> jon
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> http://www.content-based-science.org
>
>
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